full support help with parts lifting from raft

Support&troubleshooting Zortrax M200
1

I've been printing for a while and never have found a reason to use full support.  However I'm printing a wide and flat part for a customer that are essentially two case halves.  The attached images are generic enough to show the problem but don't show all the interior design details. I'm printing it in Zultrat, .09µm, Solid, LightSupport, AutoFan, and the several case half are pulling up off the raft at the outside edges.  The parts however are useable but I am wondering if this is a time I should consider using Full Support or any tips others have.  Guess I'm amazed how well the prints always are with Support Lite that I'm wondering why you would use Full Support but think this may be a reason.  Any tips on perhaps putting a pause after the raft is made and adding glue or something to keep corners pinned down?

An interior part that is part of the same project is a flat honeycomb insert and it failed miserably.  I use the same settings as above in Zultrat and it appears that the Lite Supports didn't hold up on the outside edges and perhaps as a result the interior honeycomb was half printed.  I'm at a loss on this one and feel like I should go Full Support on this as well.

Thanks for any ideas.

2

the pics got loaded backwards, the pic of the case on the print platform and on a desk are the main pics.  The second is the top and bottom of the honeycomb insert that self destructed..

3

To be honest you cant do nothing much to avoid warping. Its the nature of abs that it will warp at any time especially with such big parts with flat surfaces. The only thing you can do is  to cut the part in several smaller pieces and print them individually. Then glue that pieces together to have the complete part.

4

As for the honeycomb, just swapped a new clean nozzle and it printed out perfectly; not related to the lifting from the raft.  Zultrat is not much more warp free than abs, haven't tested it as it's expensive but kinda was hoping that if it did in fact adhere to it's raft it would be a lot less warp free.  I'm still wondering why I ever print in anything except abs.   Cheers

5

For larger parts turn the fan off and attempt to keep the part as hot as possible until finished. When the plastic is aloud to cool mid print you will get a build up in warping which is what you are getting. Make up a cheap top cover as well as having side covers, If the build chamber is hot then the plastic will shrink less.

-NS

6

Thanks for the tip, I haven't fully enclosed my M200, only walls, sounds like that will help as it makes good sense. Much appreciated

7

Its most likely faulty Heatbed, I bet that if you would locate that print on the back of the printer (or back-right corner), everything would be nice. 

Well I think it solved my problem. I was able to print perfect parts with this setup.

So maybe there is a problem with my printbed, but how is it possible the heated bed is already faulty.

The printer is not more then 1.5 year old. And not extremely used.

So my question here is are there others with the same problem it could be a production fault

Anyway I did have best results with following settings/setup

A. Place the part you print ±5mm or max.10mm above the print plate.(Above 10mm I have never seen any warping) And mostly the warping will not be an issue if you do so.

Be aware there is less contact between raft and actual part and sometimes the support material cannot hold the printed part.

And the print will lose contact with support material and will result in a failed print task.

Also helpful in some cases is printing a much bigger raft then needed and use clamps from wolfcraft to hold the raft on the table

B. Be sure you have an enclosed heated chamber (Panels etc....)

C. Insert a pause after printing the raft and let it cool down for ±10min.

D. Don't use infill if not necessary - If needed use more light infill if possible or adjust shell thickness.

E. Try to orient the part on the smallest side possible and try to discover which plane is the one less functional/visual and orient it to the heated bed.

Removal of support material did become also a lot easier since someone gave me the tip here to place the parts in the freezer for a few minutes.

But make sure you let it in the freezer for at least 4 hours ! And use a knife with a very small lemmet that's a bit inclined/slanting on one side . (And I don't remember who did say this but he/she deserves a lot of kudos  :) )

just my 0.02c

8

Well I think it solved my problem. I was able to print perfect parts with this setup.

So maybe there is a problem with my printbed, but how is it possible the heated bed is already faulty.

The printer is not more then 1.5 year old. And not extremely used.

So my question here is are there others with the same problem it could be a production fault

Anyway I did have best results with following settings/setup

A. Place the part you print ±5mm or max.10mm above the print plate.(Above 10mm I have never seen any warping) And mostly the warping will not be an issue if you do so.

I am not sure why this would be done, I would love to know the difference between this and setting the part on the platform.

Be aware there is less contact between raft and actual part and sometimes the support material cannot hold the printed part.

And the print will lose contact with support material and will result in a failed print task.

Also helpful in some cases is printing a much bigger raft then needed and use clamps from wolfcraft to hold the raft on the table

B. Be sure you have an enclosed heated chamber (Panels etc....)

C. Insert a pause after printing the raft and let it cool down for ±10min.

I feel like this would work against your printing. while letting the raft cool before printing the part will help with removal it will increase the amount of warping possible because the part will not adhere to the raft as it is set to in Z-Suite.

D. Don't use infill if not necessary - If needed use more light infill if possible or adjust shell thickness.

There are a number of parts that do not need any infill, but for the most part every print will need at leas the light infill setting to have good surface quality in the top surface. This is the kind of opinion each person must build for their own prints and designs, starting off thinking like this for a new user will only lead to failure.

E. Try to orient the part on the smallest side possible and try to discover which plane is the one less functional/visual and orient it to the heated bed.

I agree with this in 99% of prints but there are going to be a select few that cannot follow this because the contact between the part and raft is so small the nozzle has a chance to knock the model off later in the print. 

Removal of support material did become also a lot easier since someone gave me the tip here to place the parts in the freezer for a few minutes.

But make sure you let it in the freezer for at least 4 hours ! And use a knife with a very small lemmet that's a bit inclined/slanting on one side . (And I don't remember who did say this but he/she deserves a lot of kudos  :) )

just my 0.02c

Ill have to take a picture of my tool kit I use for work and home. As it stands I have a small tool kit printed up that holds some of the essentials for daily work on printers. Found here: http://forum.zortrax.com/index.php?/topic/2533-small-tool-kit/

-NS

9

Sorry Nightshift,

For the late reply !

I will try to explain it...and this are things I have discovered while using my 3D printer.

I have seen when printing large parts that warping is only(mostly) visible for the first 10mm of the part.

Above this 10mm there is no visible warping anymore.

So that's why I place the part 5 to 10mm above the printing plate.(I think my building plate is mostly to hot for printing - and don't ask me if this is a software problem or a hardware problem, but I think it's a hardware fault. But still I'm no expert.)

If there is any warping at this height you mostly have the chance to place a few clamps on the printing bed

And also the print is still flexible enough to bend it to the correct place. And you don't have to restart your print job again.

I mostly let the print cool down after the printer has finished the first raft for about 10min.then I start with the support material and second raft and let it cool down again.

If I see any abnormalities I will first try to fix them with a few clamps if this is not possible I have to restart and watch when the error appears and fix the problem when it occurs.

But mostly I have detected the errors before it becomes really a problem.I use a few camera's to investigate the part while printing. Because I never stay in the room where I have the printer setup.

It's also completely enclosed in a cabinet/closet so you will would never know there is printer inside if I don't tell you.

But I does take a lot of my time to do the "investigating" thing.

But it seems that others don't have this problem and are able to print wonderfull BIG parts without doing all the things I do.

And again sorry for the late reply

10

Setup my the acetone bath station and did a small Money Clip Batman print with it.  See before and after.  After being on warm and seeing Acetone condense.  I placed part in Steamer for 18sec.  Removed and let fully dry for an hour.

Batman Money Clip - Before Acetone Bath1

After Acetone Bath1

After Acetone Bath2

Mostly happy with results or better yet kinda expected this result.  The print lines are very visible to to the specularity of the finish.  I lost a bit too much detail for my liking on the Batman insignia edges and overall.  Next I try some pre-sanding to remove some blemishes and then maybe try a dip for 9 or 10 seconds.

Thanks for everyone's insight!

Jason

11

Hello,

I am getting the end of my print lifting from the raft, will post pictures tonight, but its the first time its happened.

Its a fairly large thin part with an under cut right at the point its lifting.

I could modify the part to print in two parts, and remove the undercut, but as its a long print I'd like to avoid that if I can.

Appreciate its easier to see a picture, so will post a few tonight when I get home. 

PS the printer is in an unheated garage, but has side covers, no top cover. I am also using light grey Z-ABS.

Cheers

Andy

12

Sorry Nightshift,

....

And again sorry for the late reply

Not a problem, most people have a lives to live. Here is a model I have shown before but should be a testament to the power of the M200.

No support and still attached to the build plate so you know there are no tricks. I have a larger one now, by another printer, but this one is still impressive.

3124

13

Hi,

Here is some pictures of my part.

Part is printed 0.09mm and is full (12hr print).

Support is a b*itch to remove so I'm gobsmacked it pulled from the raft.

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/andyr27/media/CRARRV/20160414_205948.jpg.html]20160414_205948.jpg[/URL]

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/andyr27/media/CRARRV/20160414_210009.jpg.html]20160414_210009.jpg[/URL]

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/andyr27/media/CRARRV/20160414_210028.jpg.html]20160414_210028.jpg[/URL]

[URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/andyr27/media/CRARRV/20160414_210048.jpg.html]20160414_210048.jpg[/URL]

Any advice welcome.

I think I will re-orientate the part so it prints vertical and see if this cures the problem (also simplifying the support material to remove.

Cheers

Andy