Is there an issue with the mother boards??

OK, so it's not just me anymore.

I see another user has had the same component blow that I've had 2 of already. I also suspect I have a third gone.

http://ust.chatango.com/um/v/e/venosa/img/l_243.jpg

Just for the sake of fairness, I've contacted Z ages back and they gave me a procedure for requesting a replacement through my distributor which I am finally doing, so this is not a pissing and whining session.

At this point I feel the need to work out how to repair/replace this part, but when it goes it cooks up the board pretty badly and lifts the contact/solder pad it sits on. Z won't release a board at this stage without receiving the old one, and the disruption/down time is an issue for my business.

Obviously a new board under warranty is the ideal result, but to know how to repair that board would be ideal as well.

Anyone out there want to help me put a parts/procedure together.....Julia?

I am hoping that it might be possible to clean up the burnt solder pads on the board with an engraver or something, and fitting a generic component.

My 4 machines (2 at the moment) get run a LOT, but have been very reliable, this is a new issue for me. 

Could some of the latest firmware versions be pushing the boundary somewhere in that board?

Is it a transistor popping?

Is it a transistor popping?

Forgot now mate, as I just put the machines on the floor in disgust and struggled on with the 2 I have still working.

Julia identified the component last time for me, and I may have even bought some. I'll have a look.

Point I'm making is this is no longer an isolated issue, and I'd like to work out a fix to share here, as it's a complete show stopper at my end. Bad for business.

I agree.. I now have my printer running almost 24/7 but have not had this issue yet. Maybe adding a heat sink to said component would fix the problem..

Just for the sake of fairness, I've contacted Z ages back and they gave me a procedure for requesting a replacement through my distributor which I am finally doing, so this is not a pissing and whining session.

At this point I feel the need to work out how to repair/replace this part, but when it goes it cooks up the board pretty badly and lifts the contact/solder pad it sits on. Z won't release a board at this stage without receiving the old one, and the disruption/down time is an issue for my business.

This is actually a fairly major problem. Zortrax wants to enter the commercial business market, month long waits for repairs wont fly. Down time is $ for businesses. They need to figure that out.

Id have to open one of the printers to check, but I'm guessing that's one of the motor drivers or heater drivers. If this has been happening on the same machine, you probably have a defective component drawing excessive current from the driver (for example a short). Another possibility is the PSU.

Also, if they have been doing repairs to the same board (replacing the component on the same board and returning back to you) some other component on the board maybe faulty causing the driver to fail.

This is actually a fairly major problem. Zortrax wants to enter the commercial business market, month long waits for repairs wont fly. Down time is $ for businesses. They need to figure that out.

Id have to open one of the printers to check, but I'm guessing that's one of the motor drivers or heater drivers. If this has been happening on the same machine, you probably have a defective component drawing excessive current from the driver (for example a short). Another possibility is the PSU.

Also, if they have been doing repairs to the same board (replacing the component on the same board and returning back to you) some other component on the board maybe faulty causing the driver to fail.

I am actually the reason I've waited months as I took a while to get to it.

They aren't sending repaired boards, they are sending replacements.

They're just a bit paranoid with all this "cracking their code" BS that's been going on recently, and I think it's important to keep this discussion positive just so we can get them to "free up" a bit.

What I'd really like to achieve here is:

1. Ability to buy the board, even if it requires a non disclosure agreement of some sort. I want to hold spares.

2. A procedure and part to repair the board, even if just to get it all back up and running while waiting for the new part.

3. A fault finding procedure to test the board at various points, just to eliminate the possibility of other faulty components fragging out a new board.

As Zortrax has various maintenance videos, it would be good to see one that showed how to systematically test various outputs/points on the machine with a meter, just to make sure everything is within spec.

Actually, this would be a VERY good addition to the maintenance videos. Please do that Zortrax, it would work out much better for Z/clients alike.

Found a pic online of the motherboard, it's either the hot end heater or the bed heater, by location it's probably the bed heater. Measured one of my beds, it is 1.2 ohms 12v-gnd and 3.8ohms 24v-gnd, room temp. Also check wiring.

Im just gonna say it and leave it here,

If they were worried about someone cracking their code then the printer business is not one to be in. I have their machine in my home or office 24/7 if I really wanted to crack the code I could use my machine rather then send out to get a new board... I think bringing up this part of the discussion is a nonissue to Zortrax.

Im just gonna say it and leave it here,

If they were worried about someone cracking their code then the printer business is not one to be in. I have their machine in my home or office 24/7 if I really wanted to crack the code I could use my machine rather then send out to get a new board... I think bringing up this part of the discussion is a nonissue to Zortrax.

Yes it is strange, if someone really wanted to crack the code (assuming for financial gain?), wouldn't they just buy a new M200??

At least then they could test their new code they made, a board by itself is useless.

I personally feel they are inviting the risk of someone releasing a conversion mod/kit for a generic board running open software for their machines, more so than their code getting cracked. If I were them, that would bother me worse actually.

While I am a reasonably loyal and satisfied Z customer, this policy has concerned me about the suitability of this machine/company from a small business point of view. It was enough to make me take a look at the latest new printers available and see what would be a suitable replacement, but the M200 is still pretty hard to beat.

I like to have plenty of spares on hand, and every other brand will sell you a board. If I haven't got a part, I need to know I can order on online and it's coming.

Never mind......When Z hires me as their new (jet setting Australian based) CEO, I'll immediately place an exploded diagram on their site with part numbers for every single part on the machine, right down to screws and stickers, so you can just order what you want and get it.

Im just gonna say it and leave it here,

If they were worried about someone cracking their code then the printer business is not one to be in. I have their machine in my home or office 24/7 if I really wanted to crack the code I could use my machine rather then send out to get a new board... I think bringing up this part of the discussion is a nonissue to Zortrax.

They are worried about it, they've gone thru the trouble of laser etching the ID off the controller chip (some variant of an arm cortex...although you could probably narrow it down to at least the same family by looking at connections). 99% they have security features enabled (they wouldn't go thru the trouble of laser etching without implementing chip security, probably with board bricking consequences), that makes trying to break their firmware of whatever very expensive at 2k per machine.

I think their concern is justified though, people want to clone their setup....look at the wanhao machine. However, their secret sauce for trouble free high quality prints is in there software-firmware-material integration and much less so on the mechanics specifically (though high quality). Countries with little software protection, it would be major problem for them if the firmware and software were cloned. The other thing they dont want are $100 zortrax mainboard ending up in non-zortrax machines. Imagine if wanhao put zortrax boards into the duplicator 6.......major problem.

Zortrax could at the very least sell replacement mainboard with a hold fee equivalent to a new machine with the hold fee refunded when the defective mainboard is returned (core charge). That way businesses can get a replacement board in a couple days, instead of a month, and zortrax still has the security of preventing boards from floating around.

The component in question is the bed heater MOSFET. The part was identified in a previous thread as an STB120NF10 100V/110A N-channel device. Cause of the failures is unknown; Hobbymods' motherboard appears to be discolored from overheating at that location. After failure, the FET is basically shorted, so the bed heats until the firmware gives a "bed too hot" error, but since the FET is shorted, the firmware cannot stop the heating.

Could we please just have a member of Zortrax management come on here and discuss this with us?

No one's looking for an argument, but can we just have the Zortrax official policy on this matter and the reason for it?

As well as that, get a tech on here to give us some tips about how to check everything is within spec electrically?

CPS's point above was a good one....we buy a replacement board dispatched immediately, but pay a decent sized holding deposit (not the price of a new machine for christs sake, but maybe the full price of the board?) as well as demonstrate we actually own a machine. Even sign something binding.

C'mon Zortrax, you've relaxed quite a bit lately which is great, but this one is a bit starchy. Can we work out a better way to deal with this board issue constructively?

If my business were depending on this, I would like to have at least one each of the most failure-prone components around.

As for cracking the code, I would create a new motherboard for the machine (or use an existing open source one). First, I'd use a scope and test what their's is doing as well as I could, just to make sure that I was right about which outputs go to which motors and how they are controlled.

But that would create a machine that I would have to totally recalibrate for a different type of filament. In which case, why didn't I just use my Rostock max instead?

However, somebody with more time and knowledge than I have could probably figure out a lot about the machine from the board. However, anybody who wants to do this can just buy an M200 and test it with the entire machine. Yes, it might be expensive, but it can be done without a huge amount of problems. They might not be able to crack the firmware (but I'm betting they could if they were good enough), but it would probably be less expensive to figure out the results of each zcode and just write a new interpreter. That would still be immoral and illegal (depending on country), but it could be done.

People worry too much about others stealing their designs. In some ways, the ability to copy a design or "be inspired by it" is a good thing for the industry: the only way for a company to survive is to make good machines and continuously improve them. I bought mine because I felt this system which includes the filament, the printer, and the software would allow me to print without having to spend weeks dialing it in. This is especially important because I'll be living in a motorhome shortly and I don't want to have to do a lot of manual calibrations every time I move. I especially can't afford the time right now when I really need to spend my time elsewhere.

Could we please just have a member of Zortrax management come on here and discuss this with us?

No one's looking for an argument, but can we just have the Zortrax official policy on this matter and the reason for it?

As well as that, get a tech on here to give us some tips about how to check everything is within spec electrically?

CPS's point above was a good one....we buy a replacement board dispatched immediately, but pay a decent sized holding deposit (not the price of a new machine for christs sake, but maybe the full price of the board?) as well as demonstrate we actually own a machine. Even sign something binding.

C'mon Zortrax, you've relaxed quite a bit lately which is great, but this one is a bit starchy. Can we work out a better way to deal with this board issue constructively?

I'm here. Just came back from sick leave. 

I do get your point but its not up to me directly. We've achieved that kind of quality thanks to our closed ecosystem and firmware itself, no wonder that we are bit cautious about that. Users are trying to crack Z-Suite and ZCODE. We dont want to make it easier for them to reverse engineering our firmware. 

However, idea given by CPS is kind of reasonable. I will talk about it since that could shorten 'out of order' time. 

Well, users only reverse engineered (past tense) Z-Code because of lacking features and issues with Z-Suite, not to hurt the company or to reduce print quality.

IMHO there is no point whatsoever in reverse engineering either the slicer or the firmware other than to correct bugs or add missing features (which a Chinese copycat surely won’t).

There are comparable or even better slicers available for free and absolutely no need for a Chinese manufacturer to copy your firmware with so many open alternatives.

When people compare the Duplicator 6 to the Zortrax, they don't ask if it works with Z-Suite but they are happy that it works with S3D, Cura etc. and consider this an advantage.

So yeah, I understand you earn your money by selling filament, but I really wonder if this slightly paranoid approach is really helpful.

People would still buy the Zortrax filaments if it would be (officially) possible to use different slicers with full slicing/temperature control. And why shouldn’t they if the filaments

are reasonable priced and give you the best "out of the box" experience with Z-Suite?

Many players (like Cubicon, Raise3D) with comparable or superior print quality entered the market in the last year and none of them tries to shield their eco system nearly as furiously as Zortrax does.

Maybe it’s time to rethink that business model or to drop the hobbyist/prosumer market altogether.

Users are trying to crack Z-Suite and ZCODE. We dont want to make it easier for them to reverse engineering our firmware. 

We've achieved that kind of quality thanks to our closed ecosystem and firmware itself, no wonder that we are bit cautious about that. Users are trying to crack Z-Suite and ZCODE.

This is a remarkable count of (Zortrax) misbelief in a single statement!

1. The kind of quality of the M200 is achieved from a rock solid mechanical base together with optimized filament types and print profiles. The closed 'ecosystem' is the reason that customers are stuck to that level of quality for two years now, fighting with varying issues between Z-Suite and firmware releases. Meanwhile I switched to another printer that has similar to better quality wich is an 'open to everything' system that would let me tweak any aspect of 3DP. I'm kinda sad that I don't had to tweak anything yet, everything works out of the box. The overall system of that printer had more enhancements this year (hardware, software, firmware) than the M200 had since 2014.

2. Users already cracked Z-Suite, I know two.

3. Users already cracked Z-Code, I know one.

Taking your statement and looking at reality the Zortrax politics can only be seen as threatening customers, tearing their business down.

It's in a way paranoid that every potential customer should be aware of.

Remember, this was about getting spares quick (or better have some on own stock) to minimize downtime of the printer.

Well, users only reverse engineered (past tense) Z-Code because of lacking features and issues with Z-Suite, not to hurt the company or to reduce print quality.

I do understand, thats why Z-Temp has been created, to open our printer up, but we are trying to avoid that to keep it “clean” and provide OOB quality.

 

IMHO there is no point whatsoever in reverse engineering either the slicer or the firmware other than to correct bugs or add missing features (which a Chinese copycat surely won't).

There are comparable or even better slicers available for free and absolutely no need for a Chinese manufacturer to copy your firmware with so many open alternatives.

When people compare the Duplicator 6 to the Zortrax, they don’t ask if it works with Z-Suite but they are happy that it works with S3D, Cura etc. and consider this an advantage.

So yeah, I understand you earn your money by selling filament, but I really wonder if this slightly paranoid approach is really helpful.

People would still buy the Zortrax filaments if it would be (officially) possible to use different slicers with full slicing/temperature control. And why shouldn’t they if the filaments

are reasonable priced and give you the best “out of the box” experience with Z-Suite?

Many players (like Cubicon, Raise3D) with comparable or superior print quality entered the market in the last year and none of them tries to shield their eco system nearly as furiously as Zortrax does.

Maybe it’s time to rethink that business model or to drop the hobbyist/prosumer market altogether

As far as I read about D6, its pretty decent with default settings and their filament but any material changes require a lot of changes in slicer (S3D / Cura).

On the other hand, their software seems to be dangerous(?) [pic]

Bear in mind that we won’t open to any other software than ours, like never - period . It’s not my decision, its a path that company started to follow from the beginning.

 

 

This is a remarkable count of (Zortrax) misbelief in a single statement!

 

  1. The kind of quality of the M200 is achieved from a rock solid mechanical base together with optimized filament types and print profiles. The closed ‘ecosystem’ is the reason that customers are stuck to that level of quality for two years now, fighting with varying issues between Z-Suite and firmware releases. Meanwhile I switched to another printer that has similar to better quality wich is an ‘open to everything’ system that would let me tweak any aspect of 3DP. I’m kinda sad that I don’t had to tweak anything yet, everything works out of the box. The overall system of that printer had more enhancements this year (hardware, software, firmware) than the M200 had since 2014.

We’ve got great OOB quality, cant argue with that. Its like comparing Android and iOS.

 

2. Users already cracked Z-Suite, I know two.

 

  1. Users already cracked Z-Code, I know one.
Still surprised that we are overcautious and bit paranoid?

 

Remember, this was about getting spares quick (or better have some on own stock) to minimize downtime of the printer.

We most likely found a way to shorten it, cant tell much more until I receive confirmation from ‘above’

Funny topic, someone come to my home and told me that I must rebuild it or open for everyone :D Guys too much alcohol :D

Funny topic, someone come to my home and told me that I must rebuild it or open for everyone :D Guys too much alcohol :D

This is about people requesting spare parts for their printers without having to send in the old part and wait until Zortrax sends out a repaired or new one.

But as always you did not understand the topic, just like Google Translate mislead you or just your closed helmet.

Its like comparing Android and iOS.

Is it like that?

Let's see...

If I want to start a print on my M200 I have to walk to it, pull out the SD-Card (not every can be used, very picky the machine) and then copy the Z-Code on a computer to it. Then back at the printer I select the Z-Code in a list of files that gets truncated if more than 128 entries exist in the root, that truncates dictionaries and certain filenames. While looking up my file I have to turn the scroll wheel very carefully (because an also very sensitive machine).

Right now I prevent this actions, since my other machine let's me upload the file at any time (while it's printing another) over my network.

Starting / Stopping / restarting prints and maintaining files I do from my sofa.

Well, I think you are right, that's like Android vs. IOS!

Best of all: It's not an issue of the M200, just stuck development.

 

Still surprised that we are overcautious and bit paranoid? 

Actually, yes!

I cannot get the point why a company is fighting it's customers to prevent things that already happened months ago.