Large Part: Is this even Printable?

Zortrax M200 General Discussion
1

I've got a large part that I've been having trouble printing. After two attempts with limited success, I decided I would post what I was trying to do here to see what other thought, before I wasted more filament :)

The part that I'm trying to print is a shelf, 4.5" x 10", for mounting on a wall. Because of it's size, I'm printing it diagonally on the print bed, and on it's back.

Here's the model in Z-Suite: 123

Before the first print, I did a fresh ABS Slurry and checked the level of the bed - it was within .05mm all around. Also, for all of these prints I had foam walls up on both sides and the front of the printer.

First Attempt:

I aborted this print when I found the print was warped, detached from the raft, and had strings everywhere: 120

Print Settings: .39mm Layer, Light Infill, 10deg Support, 100% Fan, Yes Avoid Holes, 4 Top Layers, 4 Bottom Layers

I think the fan setting was a big part of my problem. I'd had problems with tall skinny parts in the past that needed 100% fan, but they were considerably smaller.

Second Attempt:

For the second attempt, I made the model shorter (9" instead of 10") so that I could rotate it more on the print bed. (This was done because I wanted to change the infill orientation, not to address the warp problems).

To try and help with the warp & stringyness, I turned the fan off and lowered the layer height.

Print Settings: .29mm Layer, Light Infill, 10deg Support, 0% Fan, Yes Avoid Holes, 4 Top Layers, 4 Bottom Layers

Results: 121

As you can see, the warp and stringyness both improved, but the part isn't really useable.

So here is the big question: Is there something I can tweak in the print settings or my procedure to fix my warp problems, or this file just too ambitious for the M200?

I'm already doing most of the things that have been discussed on the forums (Sand the perf board, scrape perf board clean before printing, remove excess ABS under perf board, acetone wipe & ABS slurry the board, tram the bed to the gantry, enclose the sides and front, use Light infill, etc). Interestingly, these suggestions have mostly been addressing prints that cover a lot of the print bed, but short. My print is long, but tall and skinny. Also, the design of my part is not very forgiving to the warp issues (any warp problems are easily seen because it's all large, straight sides)

My hope is that there is some "secret sauce" someone can suggest for the print settings that will fix the warp and stringyness . If not, I've been working on a modified design which might help with the warp, and I could always print it with Ultrat (but I'd rather not due to the cost).

Thanks in advance!

2

jps8 - this issue we'll solved in ZSuite 0.0.8 which will be available within 2-3 days.

3

Zortrax, 

ZSuite 0.0.8

ZSuite 0.0.7 for Mac w/new ui,

Firmware 0.0.4 fixed (not installing in some printers)

Can we have a more precise ETA for what have been promised in the last days?

Thanks

4

jps8 - this issue we'll solved in ZSuite 0.0.8 which will be available within 2-3 days.

Zortrax, can you explain how this has been solved? I did a cover for my console (half circle, 1.7mm wide, 160mm tall, and get cranks, so I agreed with this, as "this is the technology". Now I'm interested how this can be fixed by software.

Regards

Slawek

5

I think guys you push them too much, if they finish something it definitely will be available.

6

I didn't mean to push anybody, if my post looks like this, then I'm sorry for my English. I just like to know how things works (or why they don't work;). If the answer is "it's out secret algorithm", then that's the answer.

S

7

Generally it’s the technology and the filament available at the moment for this printer. My first printer was a solidoodle 3 which was terrible and owning a machine shop at the time I had to remachine a majority of the parts in order to make it a decent printer. Once I was done replacing every part I was still getting warp and I had an enclosure so I added a ceramic heater so I could mimic an industrial fdm printer and bam! warp free prints after that. The temperature I ran the ambient temp was 55c° which was as high as I could take it without having to add additional forms of cooling to the stepper motors. I’m not sure how a firmware update will fix this other than increase the temp after the initial raft layer for better adhesion but even then so it most likely won’t be enough

8

I know this may not be the best solution, but what I do with those kind of parts is let the printer generate the raft and some layers of the actual part, then I apply cyanoacrylate to the corners of the part. It has worked everytime.

9

So in the next update the raft will be more difficult to remove, as I have found that this is the main problem withlarge parts they stick solid to the bed but in some point they are lifted from the raft.

I have also noticed some problems when printing circles, the bottom layer doesn't support the next layer. and you end up having something like this.

Settings were

20° support

Infill: full

Fan 100%

It looks like overhangs in circles are not well managed or a speed issue.

[URL=http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/mmaxds/media/DSCN2846_zps9539a9e6.jpg.html]DSCN2846_zps9539a9e6.jpg[/URL]

10

jps8 - this issue we'll solved in ZSuite 0.0.8 which will be available within 2-3 days.

Great!

Which issue are you talking about? The strings hanging off the print? The warping? Or the inability to controll the infill orientation (other than by rotating the part on the plate)?

11

I know this may not be the best solution, but what I do with those kind of parts is let the printer generate the raft and some layers of the actual part, then I apply cyanoacrylate to the corners of the part. It has worked everytime.

I never would have thought to try that - Thanks for the tip!

12

Generally it's the technology and the filament available at the moment for this printer. My first printer was a solidoodle 3 which was terrible and owning a machine shop at the time I had to remachine a majority of the parts in order to make it a decent printer. Once I was done replacing every part I was still getting warp and I had an enclosure so I added a ceramic heater so I could mimic an industrial fdm printer and bam! warp free prints after that. The temperature I ran the ambient temp was 55c° which was as high as I could take it without having to add additional forms of cooling to the stepper motors. I'm not sure how a firmware update will fix this other than increase the temp after the initial raft layer for better adhesion but even then so it most likely won't be enough

Techbuilder - I'd be very interested to hear about your ceramic heater setup.

I've got a hacked together enclosure - it's just some of the 1" black foam the printer was packed in, cut to size and held up on 3 sides by a large rubber band. I've got a more elegant enclosure in the works.

I love the idea of a heater in the enclosure, but we've been warned that if you enclose all sides and the top, you can get the filament in the clear tube too hot and your extruder will start jamming. Did you ever see this issue with your solidoodle? Maybe a thermostat would be enough to mitigate this.

Also, how did you figure out the max ambient temperature for hte stepper motors?

13
I have also noticed some problems when printing circles, the bottom layer doesn't support the next layer. and you end up having something like this.

Settings were

20° support

Infill: full

Fan 100%

It looks like overhangs in circles are not well managed or a speed issue.

Yeah - I saw similar issues on a print that had a concave surface on the bottom - the bottom print surface, with or without support, was pretty unimpressive. Fortunately it wasn't easy to see, so the print was still useable.

14

Thanks for all the feedback.

I also asked our local printing guru and he tells me the same thing I'm getting from here: The print is possible, but you've got to have a great enclosure & control the heat, to prevent warp.

I'm going to work on improving my enclosure, wait for the software update, and give it another shot.

15

jps8 - this issue we'll solved in ZSuite 0.0.8 which will be available within 2-3 days.

Warping will be solved in 0.0.8? Do I understand that correctly?

16

For full enclosure we can add a fan on top of the stepper to cool down the whole block,

Let me show you how the tips are cooled down on a stratsys printer.

[URL=http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/mmaxds/media/IMAG3066_zpsfa99f5b5.jpg.html]IMAG3066_zpsfa99f5b5.jpg[/URL]

[URL=http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/mmaxds/media/IMAG3065_zps53649fb0.jpg.html]IMAG3065_zps53649fb0.jpg[/URL]

[URL=http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/mmaxds/media/IMAG3063_zpsfca6e48a.jpg.html]IMAG3063_zpsfca6e48a.jpg[/URL]

The grey tube provides cool air to keep the start of the tip at goob temperature and th filament also. So it is hard enough to push down the filament. Many up mini and Up 2 users have added this to prevent filament clicking wich is a common problem in those machines. And it looks very easy to implement.

Also there is another thing you should leave the block free, I have been thinking of adding on the top this:

[URL=http://s1242.photobucket.com/user/mmaxds/media/61MuwZhl6nL_SL1500__zpse0a2d92a.jpg.html]61MuwZhl6nL_SL1500__zpse0a2d92a.jpg[/URL]

you will need four pieces and it has to be mounted on top of the printer.

and leave the cube free so it has additional cool down.

17

Warping will be solved in 0.0.8? Do I understand that correctly?

Not fully ‘solved’, just interlayer bonding will be increased for Z-ABS and overall parts will be stronger and harder.

Best Regards

18

So here is the big question: Is there something I can tweak in the print settings or my procedure to fix my warp problems, or this file just too ambitious for the M200?

I burned through a lot of filament working through a large print like yourself. In the end, the only thing that worked was covering the machine with the clear plastic bag the unit came in. I think I burned through a full spool of ZABS before finally making 1 part. The part was designed to just barely fit inside Zsuite parameters. 

19

I like the idea of that accordian style cover, particularly because it keeps the tube of filament out of the heat.

20

Techbuilder - I'd be very interested to hear about your ceramic heater setup.

I've got a hacked together enclosure - it's just some of the 1" black foam the printer was packed in, cut to size and held up on 3 sides by a large rubber band. I've got a more elegant enclosure in the works.

I love the idea of a heater in the enclosure, but we've been warned that if you enclose all sides and the top, you can get the filament in the clear tube too hot and your extruder will start jamming. Did you ever see this issue with your solidoodle? Maybe a thermostat would be enough to mitigate this.

Also, how did you figure out the max ambient temperature for hte stepper motors?

I don't have the ceramic lamp being displayed in any of the pics but I made a hole in the back and attached a metal plate with a set screw to attach the lamp after.

Here's the project page I made

http://www.soliforum.com/topic/3863/heated-build-chamber/

Here's someone who went to the extreme of going 70°c

http://lesagegp.wordpress.com/2013/07/07/3d-printer-with-heated-chamber/

This is an article showing the difference an insulated enclosure could make and that's not even with added heat which increases adhesion and reduces warp even more.

http://diy3dprinting.blogspot.com/2013/08/diy-40-chamber-and-effects-on-3d-print.html

I never had an issue with my filament being clogged when I swapped to an E3D v5 extruder so I can't speak for it not getting clogged on the zortrax but I highly doubt 45 to 50°c would cause any issues

Here's the link to the ceramic heater I used.

http://www.amazon.com/Zoo-Med-ReptiCare-Ceramic-Infrared/dp/B0002AQCQO/ref=sr_1_3?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1405615510&sr=1-3&keywords=ceramic+heater+bulb&dpPl=1

You may want to increase the wattage to 200 to 250watts since I had to further insulate the case pretty well to get it up to temp