Most outside wall is peeled off easily

[Ichiro]

Hello,

I usually have had a box shaped item printing in many cases and have not had an issue like this time on M200 so far. But happening on M200 Plus.

Since I have had long printing trouble for M200 Plus, so I have not noticed. But this time it have turned out obvious. When I check the surface of printed model, I noticed some bump and hollow in the vertical wall surface. I thought that it is the bonding problem between outside wall and inside infill structure. But actually it was that the most outside layer, perimeter?, is not bonded to the next perimeter…

It is difficult for me to explain this in English, so please have a look at the pictures bellow.

I can cut in with knife and peel off by hand easily !

This is my setting. I think that I am using almost the same setting as default.

In the thread “Outer wall adhesion issues”, it is said that this problem is fixed, but still happening, I think.

Z-SUITE version : 2.12.2.0
M200Plus Firmware version :2.2.3

Does anybody know how to solve this?

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

If you can, please upload stl or similar

[Ichiro]

Hello ChunkyPastaSauce,

Thanks for reply.

Here is the STL File.

TMP-01.stl (1.8 MB)

It’s 3am here, I go to bed.

See you tomorrow or later!

Best Regards,
Have a good day.

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Nothing looks wrong to me when slicing model.
It kinda looks like you have a small gap in certain places around holes on top from your photo too?

Assuming the nozzle is clear, I’d try increasing the flow ratio to widen the perimeters or maybe increasing temperature.

It’s worth measuring the filament to check if it’s undersized. If it does this every print since you got the machine (and assuming it’s not normal for m200plus), then it’s possible for something like the extruder gear being slightly off size. Another possibility is the temperature being too low for some reason.

[Ichiro]

Hi ChunkyPastaSauce,

Thank you very much for detailed support!

Nothing looks wrong to me when slicing model.
It kinda looks like you have a small gap in certain places around holes on top from your photo too?

Yes, there is also gap around holes. I have noticed this from the days of M200 and thought that this is the characteristic of Zortrax way, but this is problem, too.

I can show you more pictures about this as bellow.

This is the one you mentioned. (This is Z-HIPS)

The following examples are by Z-ABS.

We can also see the outer perimeter separation, too!

Assuming the nozzle is clear, I’d try increasing the flow ratio to widen the perimeters or maybe increasing temperature.

As you may find in other thread “Print stops on the way before completion”, I have had a problem for longer printing, I have changed for new nozzle and its cover, maintained all the axis, belt tension …
So machine should be ok, I think.

Since I am using Zortraz materials, Z-HIPS and Z-ABS in my case, I usually use the default setting for Zortrax materials. In this case you have no control about temperature. Otherwise we have to use external setting… I have had feeling that Zortrax machine is not good at temperature control especially for extruder and that tendency appears clearly for PLA printing. Thai is why I use MicroSwiss Hotend for M200 since I use M200 for PLA printing sometime when I need more printers. Usually I use Prusa Mk3S, Anycubic i3 Mega, CR-10 and other for PLA printing. Also we can not control flow ratio for Zortrax materials, but only for the first layer.

It’s worth measuring the filament to check if it’s undersized. If it does this every print since you got the machine (and assuming it’s not normal for m200plus), then it’s possible for something like the extruder gear being slightly off size. Another possibility is the temperature being too low for some reason.

I think that this separation usually happens on M200 Plus, just I did not notice. If printing model is small and low height, it is hard to see if outer perimeter is detached …

I have also checked extruder gear and bearing next to it, they are all fine!
I think that this is the printing scheme problem. Therefore this should be fixed by tool path, extruder temperature, fan speed around these perimeter areas !!

I can peel off all the face around except seam line as you see bellow.

I cannot use M200+ for the model with tall vertical surface …

[Norman]

I am sorry but i have given up with Zortrax … i am going to put both the m200+ on ebay with the full story of the past 14 months. This is a classic oveheating problem from start to finish with an untested product bought onto the market too soon.

Karolina has now taken great delight in telling me my printers are now out of warranty and that i will have to pay for all parts in future when this is clearly a very badly designed cooling system that both you and i have identified. My local dealer who sold me these went out of business and now does printing only with other makes of printers.

this is the mess i am in

[Ichiro]

Oh no …

Ok, I can understand your decision.
I was almost in the same situation and feeling as yours, but hanging on the edge…
I hope that this experience will be difinitely worth for your future work.

When I saw the cheap trapezoidal linear screw for Z-axis on M200+, I thought that I should have more M200. For Z-axis, it is basically only going down, so I can understand for taking reasonable parts, but I miss solid ball screw fitted on M200 since I work sometime for CNC milling machines. It is far more important for me than fancy LCD touch screen … hahah

Now Zortrax engineer are working on this perimeter issue, I hope they can find the way out!!

[Ichiro]

Hi,

This issue is just solved, so I explain the details bellow.

Based on my trouble report to Zortrax, they started looking this issue and at the same time gave me a tip which may solve this trouble. So I worked in my side, too. That was the “Contour Infill Gap” in ADVANCED setting

Since the days of M200, users did not have so much control over the print settings and I had believed that is because Zortrax was so confident for their setting about printing models with their materials. But things has changed and currently user can change some print settings and also use external materials.

When I started using M200 Plus, the default setting which is in this case “NORMAL” in Z-SUITE is the optimum setting for the combination with Zortrax materials I thought and had had no doubt about that and kept using its “NORMAL” setting until I found perimeter separation this time. But this my idea was wrong …

Therefore I prepared the simple model to examine this issue in my side.
Here is the STL file of it. If you would like to see, please have look on Z-SUITE.
PerimeterTest-01.stl (1.5 MB)

The size of this model is L60 x B40 x H100 mm and will take about 10 hours to print in the setting bellow, but just first few hour print is enough to see the issue this time. So I printed this model in two cases, one with NORMAL setting and another with ADVANCED which I changed CIG (Contour Infill Gap) value changed to 0.0mm.

The cause which is making this time trouble was the setting value for “Contour Infill Gap” in NORMAL setting. We cannot control this value in “NORMAL” setting, but in ADVANCED. I have confirmed this issue occurs for Z-ABS and Z-HIPS. But you may be able to check if this issue happens for other materials in Z-SUITE as bellow !

Before starting real printing, you can check and see if outside perimeter is ok or not in Z-SUITE as above. By zooming up and carefully rotating model, you can see the seam line is all the way down to the top of bottom surface and there are very small Gaps between the outside perimeter and the one next to it.

Bellow is the one which I used for pinting with default NORMAL setting.

This is zcodex for this.
PerimeterTest-01-CIG-04.zcodex (470.0 KB)

Now from the above, I just click the “ADVANCED” tab, then bellow appears.

As you see here, Contour Infill Gap is set to 0.40mm in NORMAL setting.

(continue to my next post !)

[Ichiro]

And this time I changed this value to 0.00mm in ADVANCED setting and did real print with this setting.

As you see bellow, small Gaps disappeared in Z-SUITE.

Here is the xcodex for this.
PerimeterTest-01-CIG-00.zcodex (467.8 KB)

Now let’s check the models printed in two setting !

Now Compare side by side !

As you see above, I could reproduce the issue again. If I print this 100% until the end, it is hard to notice if this issue happens. As you see the picture from back side which is attaching to the raft, both look almost the same !!! Therefore I guess that many users who use default NORMAL setting have not noticed this issue yet… In my opinion this default NORMAL setting should be changed about the contour fill gap at least !!!

And after this test, I have had another concern which is about the sizing matter.

With the NORMAL setting model is printed up in a bit smaller size than designed. Here it should be 40mm exact, but 0.32mm smaller. just roughly speaking !
(Actually I measured this before I peeled off the perimeter, just forgot taking picture.)

ON the other side, with the ADVANCED setting which CIG set to 0mm, the model gets a bit bigger. I think that this is due to the fact that inside perimeter is pushing out the outside one. I was assuming that this might happen and actually it did !

I have not used the setting for OFFSET in ADVANCED setting except for Contour Infil Gap this time. Other setting like Outer Contours may be able to control this sizing issue, I guess. So I will try more when I have time.

At last, thank you very much indeed Zortrax, ChunkyPastSauce, and Norman. Now I feel better to use M200 Plus than before.

This issue is closed !!!

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Well that’s awesome; wish that was available for m200.

[Ichiro]

I agree with you !
Also I believe that Zortrax will not leave behind the users of M200&300 about this option. Since this option is not the hardware matter, it is just a matter of tool path and can be implemented in Z-SUITE same way for the other family members like M series and so!

I just post more picture which I checked. I am not going to say more at this moment. Just have a look please and you can check by yourself more details with the sample model as I uploaded here in stl file.

Bonus Photo !?

This is all today !!!

[ChunkyPastaSauce]

Also I believe that Zortrax will not leave behind the users of M200&300 about this option. Since this option is not the hardware matter, it is just a matter of tool path and can be implemented in Z-SUITE same way for the other family members like M series and so!

I definitely see wall separations sometimes, which I can sometimes correct using flow ratio. The contour infill gap option and the thin wall infill setting would be really nice to have. But I think zortrax has said they are basically done with m200.

[Ichiro]

Hi,
I have been using 3D printers to make engineering, functional parts mainly for business. These parts do require its strength and durability. The final product is made up with many different shape parts. Therefore if I have more printers, I can build up the final product in very short time, do modification and rebuild soon. These quick cycle, designing and prototype building, is the key in the product development stage.

So the cost for printers and materials, and also the strength of printed parts and durability are very important. The final product is usually done with post process work like sanding, bonding, and painting sometime.

From the above view point, honestly speaking I have not found any advantage about using Zortrax these days. The chance of using Prusa Mk3S have been increasing … cost for the printer is 1/3, precision fairly good enough, and can have more control over printing.

For a long run, the cost for printers are nothing, but the quality, strength and durability of printed parts are crucial. This is the main reason why I prefer Prusa these days …

[nitrox]

hi,
same issues here,so i tested your settings:
yes outer perimeter have a good adhesion if set to 0, but now it’s the internal infill that have issue :

have you this problem too?

edit : when i zoom on your last picture, it seem that you haven’t the same dimension of the object between body and top layer parts. could you confirm to me that?
it’s appear i have the same issue.

[Ichiro]

Hi nitrox,

As you see my sample, internal infill is ok.
Your infill setting is different … I used honeycomb

My sample does not have top layer, but just bottom which attached to the raft.
( I stopped printing to see the section !)

I have not had these samples, thrown away already …
But I have had no problem about top layers so far.

[PWSD]

I am a older M200 user also. Did you find a fix to the Counters peeling off that works for you?

[PWSD]

It appears Zortrax will not be implementing the ‘Contour Infill Gap’ setting for M200. I am at a loss on what to do. Older versions of Z-Suite will no longer work in Windows 10 on my machine. This separation is making my parts unusable and I will have to consider moving away from Zortrax… any help appreciated.

[KarolinaZortrax]

Hi @PWSD,

I see you are already in contact with our support agent. As my colleague said - we introduced the infill gap functionality for M Plus printers so that the quality of the prints would be the same as in Z-SUITE for M200 printers where this problem did not occur. Please, send the files my colleague asked for, so we can look into the matter.

Best regards,
Karolina

[PWSD]

Hello Karolina
Thank you for the reply. Yes indeed the issue exists with M200 verified by the Z-Suite 2.21.0.0 file attached and photos below. Material Z-HIPS. Infill 50%. Images were taken with the parts stopped approximately 30% complete.

I have been a big advocate for Zortrax and need this resolved as soon as possible. Separately I am working with Izabela. Can you please discuss with her also and post back?

Thank you

Stove Right Angle Bracket Test 06202021.zprojx (290.2 KB)

[ahntlia]

Not only this issues are present, some other like this one.

M200 plus, latest firmware and software, original z-ABS

Easy geometry, and terrible results.