To be honest, there's no point sending STL files for support - it is nothing whatsoever to do with the STL files - it is a change that Zortrax has made to prevent the parts from warping from the raft. I can print and successfully detach the parts if I increase the fan to a high level, but this merely weakens not only the bond between the raft and part, but also inter-layer bonding which we all know leads to layer splits.
I did a controlled experiment: I printed a fairly large object with four flat feet and a big flat underside (see photo). The first time I used Zsuite 0.0.8 and the second time 0.0.7. Both times I used the latest firmware, 0.0.4.
In both prints, the raft peeled from the part very easily. Not too surprising since it's only attached to the four feet bottoms and the support.
In the first print, sliced with 0.0.8, the lowest underside layer is completely bonded to the topmost interface support layer - it's absolutely impossible to separate the interface layer from the part without damaging the part.
In the second part, sliced with 0.0.7, the support peeled away from the part easily by hand.
Both prints used Z-ABS, 0.39mm layers, and no fan (the part needs to be strong). With 0.0.8 I selected High Speed and Support Lite; these options are not available in 0.0.7.
To be honest, there's no point sending STL files for support - it is nothing whatsoever to do with the STL files - it is a change that Zortrax has made to prevent the parts from warping from the raft. I can print and successfully detach the parts if I increase the fan to a high level, but this merely weakens not only the bond between the raft and part, but also inter-layer bonding which we all know leads to layer splits.
I accept that the new setting may have uses, but an option “easy raft removal” or similar in z-suite would be much better.
Cheers,
Jay
I checked Zortrax temperature readout by connecting they thermocouple into fluke temperature meter and it showing something around 280C after update (before it was solid 260C) - seems they now printing nearly to stratasys temperature, so in your case if they increased temperature and you incrase air flow - then somehow layers interbond will be at same level as before if I’m not wrong.
My multimeter shows 290°C - (ABS, Normal speed, 0,09mm), 290°C - (ABS, High speed, 0,09mm) and 285°C - (ABS, High speed, 0,39mm). But yours is Fluke. B)
I concur. Parts made with 0.0.8 are almost impossible to remove from the interface layer. But the parts also feel much stronger than they used to. Maybe a compromise is needed, say 270C, if it used to be 260C.
I'll be going back to 0.0.7 until the issue is fixed. Which is a shame as I really like support "lite" and high speed.
I did a controlled experiment: I printed a fairly large object with four flat feet and a big flat underside (see photo). The first time I used Zsuite 0.0.8 and the second time 0.0.7. Both times I used the latest firmware, 0.0.4.
In both prints, the raft peeled from the part very easily. Not too surprising since it's only attached to the four feet bottoms and the support.
In the first print, sliced with 0.0.8, the lowest underside layer is completely bonded to the topmost interface support layer - it's absolutely impossible to separate the interface layer from the part without damaging the part.
In the second part, sliced with 0.0.7, the support peeled away from the part easily by hand.
Both prints used Z-ABS, 0.39mm layers, and no fan (the part needs to be strong). With 0.0.8 I selected High Speed and Support Lite; these options are not available in 0.0.7.
Julia, did you notice improved part strength with 0.0.8 ? Or was it too hard to tell with the interface layer attached still?
I concur. Parts made with 0.0.8 are almost impossible to remove from the interface layer. But the parts also feel much stronger than they used to. Maybe a compromise is needed, say 270C, if it used to be 260C.
I'll be going back to 0.0.7 until the issue is fixed. Which is a shame as I really like support "lite" and high speed.
Even better is to let users decide hot end temp. Sometimes you want easy to remove support sometimes strenght is more important.
Even better is to let users decide hot end temp. Sometimes you want easy to remove support sometimes strenght is more important.
I think there are more variables involved in making support removal easy than just temp. You can play with extrusion rate, head speed, micro-adjustments to layer spacing, interface layer density, etc. I am no expert in slicer design but I think I see some of these things happening in other printers. So maybe they can keep the high temp and adjust other parameters.
I've also been having problems removal of the raft from the part, usually when I try to remove the raft at the end of a print job. I printed the white parts of this turbine:
yesterday and it got done late last night so sat on a cooled off bed for about 8 hours. All of the parts separated quite easily. Is it possible that increasing the cool off time might help with separation? Or maybe popping them in teh freezer for a while.
I've also been having problems removal of the raft from the part, usually when I try to remove the raft at the end of a print job. I printed the white parts of this turbine:
yesterday and it got done late last night so sat on a cooled off bed for about 8 hours. All of the parts separated quite easily. Is it possible that increasing the cool off time might help with separation? Or maybe popping them in teh freezer for a while.
Mike
My parts were cool and I still couldn't get them off the raft properly. It shouldn't make too much difference with ABS if the parts are still a little warm.
I checked Zortrax temperature readout by connecting they thermocouple into fluke temperature meter and it showing something around 280C after update (before it was solid 260C) - seems they now printing nearly to stratasys temperature, so in your case if they increased temperature and you incrase air flow - then somehow layers interbond will be at same level as before if I'm not wrong.
My measurements today:
0.0.7 Z-ABS: 265C during calibration, cooling to 260C during first layer and staying there.
0.0.7 UltraT: 290C during calibration, cooling to 280C during first layer and staying there.
0.0.8 Z-ABS: 290C during calibration, cooling to 280C during first layer and staying there.
0.0.8 UltraT: 290C during calibration, cooling to 280C during first layer and staying there.
New temperature in 0.0.8 could explain bigger raft adhesion in some prints? (I think depends also on geometry and dimensions, but as a rule new version tends to more adhesion on my experience)
My parts were cool and I still couldn't get them off the raft properly. It shouldn't make too much difference with ABS if the parts are still a little warm.
Weird, I've printed some fairly large footprint items in black and white Z-ABS in the last couple days; the raft came off the perf board easily and I had only a little trouble separating the raft from one of the black parts. There's a large red Z-ABS part that has been printing all day and that should be done late tonight. These might all be older filaments (May 2014) so maybe that makes a difference. I've certainly had problems in parts printed a few days earlier.
I think an option for easy raft removal would be a Real Good Idea.
Weird, I've printed some fairly large footprint items in black and white Z-ABS in the last couple days; the raft came off the perf board easily and I had only a little trouble separating the raft from one of the black parts. There's a large red Z-ABS part that has been printing all day and that should be done late tonight. These might all be older filaments (May 2014) so maybe that makes a difference. I've certainly had problems in parts printed a few days earlier.
I think an option for easy raft removal would be a Real Good Idea.
Mike
Mike, that's interesting. I wonder if they changed the filament also ? I printed a large flat part in black (new roll) the other day, and it was harder than normal to remove the raft, but it was easier than the white. However I noticed that on the top section where it has a thin tall part I got weird ripples, that looked like it was getting too hot. Something I had never seen before on the m200. Makes sense though if the temperature has been increased.
I don't like the idea of having an option for easy or hard raft removal. If what they are doing is increasing the temperature to achieve this, it is also causing other problems such as the one I mentioned. It should be simple enough to just back the temperature off a little and have improved part strength and still easy to remove raft and support. Don't forget that turning up the fan a little will also help.
I've definitely had problems with parts and 0.0.8 before this last batch though were mostly smaller footprint and now that I think about it, were probably done with the "fast" speed that 0.0.8 offers. This last batch has been done with normal speed.
I'm still learning how fan speed and support on/off, support angle, and other parameters or layouts affects different types of prints. It would be nice if Zortrax could either create a white paper on print parameter selection o point users toward an existing source.
