Request Test Print

Zortrax M200 General Discussion
#1

Hello forum

new member researching a few printers for a while and the time has come where I will finally need to make a purchase. I dont remember how I found out about Zortrax but im glad I did learned about it. I have reached the point where I have eliminated all other printers on my list of possible contenders except for M200 and Inventure.

( odd how the only two printers left on my list are both from Zortrax ??)

( even more odd how a printer that has not even released yet still beat out some well known printers on my list ??)

The only thing stopping me at this point from purchasing an M200 is confirming the quality with a physical print in hand for review. I have an STL ive designed which i have used for printing from a professional service using one of those fancy pants powder laser setups. I am interested if the M200 can come very close in comparison. Rather, how close the M200 can come in comparison. Thus my request for a physical print to evaluate and compare.

The purpose of the item is to be used as a PCB protective case for use indoors and measuring approx 60mm x 60mm x 10mm. Since i am not familiar with z-suite I leave settings options up to the determination of the member who agrees to print the design. I would like to point out the settings should at least reflect very best possible build quality since i will be comparing M200 print quality to an SLS print. Print material is also up to the determination of the member who agrees to print based on which ever material will be best suited for the intended purpose of this item. I also request both a vertical and horizontal print if possible to evaluate the different possible finishes after removal of raft and support material, or if any support material is required.

All the previous SLS prints have been performed with no hollowing to allow maximum material for added strength. I hope the same can be preformed with M200 as i will need to evaluate strength too.

I hope this request does not sound to demanding however, I only wish to determine if Zortrax LDP will fulfill my needs. 

- I will compensate for all materials, time, shipping, and bonus for helping me evaluate M200 quality.  

- I am located in USA.

- Multiple M200 owners welcome to partake in this request since I understand everyone has a different style for achieving high quality prints.

- Example views of lower shell attached.

- STL to be provided privately.

Thank You

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ex2.jpg

2398

ex1.jpg

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edit: the thinnest walls should be 1mm and the previous SLS print was performed at 60µm.

#2

Check PM

#3

Kyle sent me a few photos of the prints. I am satisfied with the quality at 140µ. I am still waiting to have these in hand so i can formulate my opinion, but i really like what I see thus far.

Ive attached a picture containing a portion of the print that caught my eye.

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zoom.png

I counted 7 layers of material on a 1mm wall.

This got me thinking about the thickness of one layer. Seven is an odd number. So i started wondering if the M200 actually printed a 1mm wall. Im still learning about 3D printers but i decided to kill some time to investigate more closely the machines documented specifications. I am not sure if i have the right basics/fundamentals in understanding of layers and print resolution. So im hoping someone can point out any errors or flaws with my limited knowledge.

0.140µ * 7 layers = 0.98mm

this is 0.020mm short of one full mm

so if the design was instead printed @ 90µ , I calculated it would contain 11 layers per one mm

0.090µ * 11 layers = 0.99mm

this is 0.010mm short of one full mm

then i started thinking about larger prints. since M200 has a build height of up to 180mm and if a 180mm print was performed @ 90µ, would this come out to 1.8mm total deviation in height from original design?

now if i got that part of the calculations right, what about the Z-Axis single step precision of 1.25 microns?

would this calculate to 800 steps per every one mm ??

1mm / 1.25µ = 800 steps

If 800 steps per MM, then optimal vertical print layer height should be calculated in multiples of 0.00125.

400 steps per 1/2mm and 800 steps per 1mm

using a real world factor of 100 steps per layer would be 4 layers per 1/2mm and 8 layers per 1mm.

so if using 8 layers per one mm, would this indicate an optimal vertical print resolution of 125µ?

0.125 * 8 layers = 1.00mm

or also

using a possible real world factor of 20 steps per layer would be 20 layers per 1/2mm and 40 layers per 1mm

would this then indicate an optimal vertical print resolution of 50µ?

0.050 * 40 layers = 1.00mm

however, these calculated resolutions would only apply to vertical print resolution since the XY precision is 1.5 microns or 0.0015

since the precision of the XY vs Z is two different values, how can you possibly calculate one optimal print resolution across all directions to make an exact 1mm cube?

there is no way to achieve 1mm horizontally.

1mm / 1.5µ = 666.6666666666666666666 = number of the beast

is my math / understanding flawed?

#4

While cooling, the transformations inside the plastic parts are much larger than 1.5µ per XY or 1.25µ per Z.

1mm XY is achived by using 666 or 667 steps, being short by 0.(9)µ first case or 0.4(9)µ in the second case.

Above is for travel. The real problem is thickness for deposited plastic, where it can be from 0.4mm to 0.5mm. This determines the thinnest printable feature.

For Z axis maximal error per whole build volume is still 1 step or 1.25µ (actually the error is less than one step).

#5

Sent today..

#6
 

While cooling, the transformations inside the plastic parts are much larger than 1.5µ per XY or 1.25µ per Z.

 
the cooling causes expansion or contraction of material, or some other transformation?
speaking of cooling, should there be any kind of controlled cool down after prints?
I had already considered mods to make my own heated chamber so any type of controlled cool down times would be nice to factor into my design.  
 
 
 
 

1mm XY is achived by using 666 or 667 steps, being short by 0.(9)µ first case or 0.4(9)µ in the second case.

OK i understand there is no way to have a precise 1mm print along the XY since i have to factor either a potential 666 or 667 steps

so 1mm XY will print as either 0.999mm or 1.0005mm.  

I really cant complain about that type of precision. I should have worked out the math a little further but as soon as i ended up with XY as 666 steps i thought my mind was playing tricks on my calculations. (I listen to Iron Maiden all day every day)

so i assume M200 specs per 1mm are as follows:

800 steps @ 1.25µ Z-axis = 0.99mm

and

666 steps @ 1.5µ XY = 0.999mm

Now what im trying to understand is the relationship between resolution and steps, and understanding which would be the most ideal print resolution to choose for a print.

In the print picture i previously posted, I counted 7 layers in 1mm @140µ resolution.

If you print a 1mm x 1mm cube: 

Z-axis

140µ resolution / 1.25µ Z-axis = 112 steps per layer

112 steps * 7 layers = 784 steps

784 steps * 1.25µ per step = 0.980mm

1mm - 0.980mm = 0.020mm deviation from one full mm

wouldnt a better count be to use 114 steps per layer along the Z-axis?

114 steps * 7 layers = 798 steps

798 steps * 1.25µ = 0.9975mm

1mm -  0.9975mm = 0.0025mm deviation from one full mm

this would then equal an optimal Z-axis print resolution of 142.5µ compared to 140µ

XY

140µ resolution / 1.5µ XY precision =  93.333333 or 94 steps per layer

94 steps * 7 layers = 658 steps

658 steps * 1.5µ per step = 0.987mm 

1mm - 0.987mm = 0.013mm deviation from one full mm

wouldnt a better count be to use 95 steps per layer along the XY axis?

95 steps * 7 layers = 665 steps

665 steps * 1.5µ per step = 0.9975mm

1mm -  0.9975mm = 0.0025mm deviation from one full mm

this would then equal an optimal XY print resolution of 142.5µ compared to 140µ

did i get any of that right? or am i still lacking some fundamental understanding somewhere?

or is the 140µ resolution option displayed in Z-suite actually using a 142.5µ print resolution??

 The real problem is thickness for deposited plastic, where it can be from 0.4mm to 0.5mm. This determines the thinnest printable feature.

I was also hoping to avoid having to consider extruded material thickness because I could not figure out how to make it work into my calculations.  if the material has a thickness of about 0.4mm or 0.5mm then how do 7 layers get deposited within 1mm  @140µ resolution?

if Z-axis has 112 steps per layer:

112 * 1.25µ =  0.14mm layer thickness

0.14mm thickness * 7 layers = 0.98mm applied thickness (which matches my calculations above)

however, 0.4mm material thickness x 7 layers should = 2.8mm applied thickness.

2.8mm is a lot different than 0.98mm

what am i missing here?

#7

You are missing printing!

#8

You got the Z axis part now.

XY is not dependent on layers. XY movements are accurate to 1 step or 1.5µ.

Let's take your 1mm cubed and make it more printable: 10mm cubed. Slicer looks at that object and calculates Z layers by dividing 10mm to selected layer thickness. It can also compensate and make 1 layer thicker or thinner than selected to get the total height perfectly to 10mm.

First layer is then produced by navigating perimeter of cube -0,2mm (0,4mm extrusion width/2) so the sides of the cube will be 10mm each with plastic deposited from 0.0 to 0,4mm and from 9,6 to 10.0mm or a total free space of 9.2mm between the sides.

I will stop here as I think that you will now get the general idea.

ABS and most other plastics too will shrink while cooling. If I'm not mistaken ABS has the highest rate while better performers are Ultrat, Hips, Glass and PLA (not yet available).

#9

HAHA

I totally failed to realize XY was not dependent on layers....

I should have seen that, its so obvious....

as for z-suite compensating for layer thickness, I was not aware it could do that. I was thinking more of the mechanics and had not even considered the compensation factor of the applied human software. I can live with that explanation now.

Thanks for helping me get this far to gain some initial understanding.

The prints from Kyle arrive tomorrow so I might have a few more questions..

#10

Sure, sure, just ask.

It's a lot easier to figure things out once you have a printer in front of you.

After that you get the strengths and weaknesses and start designing parts specifically for 3D printing.

It's the same with CNC'd parts or injection molded parts. You design for the process.

PS: I am also curious what you think about the print.

#11

OH MY !!!!!!!

i just received the prints

this is simply amazing...i cant believe this is only the 140µ setting

using bare eyeballs these look about on par with the powder laser machines at 100µ - 150µ and also considering the 60µ prints i also got had post processing performed to it, M200 @ 140µ comes very close in quality....WTF??? HOW??? 

How can all those little layers feel so smooth to the touch?

I performed "The Wife" test. She has no clue what i do out here in my lab so she is the best judge in blind quality feedback....

without giving her any details and just asked her to feel the difference between the two, she said the M200 print felt smoother than the 60µ professional print. She noted that there was a very obvious texture feel on the 60µ print while the M200 print felt very smooth....

even the random miscellaneous prints Kyle threw in appear really impressive to showcase the abilities and high quality...

I'm purchasing M200 now !!!!!

#12

LOL!!! I figured you would like a few sample prints.. The trap worked!!! :D Welcome to the club!!

#13

Keep in mind that support removal take a little bit of time and patience.. Not too bad though on those.. I think I spent a couple minutes on each.