Supports kill models

Hello every body.
 
I bout my M200 about 3 weeks a go. 
My only asumption was not to make art figures but rather durable, mechanical accurate parts which fit together.
My choice was also dictated by relable printer opinion which stick to Zortrax as I have no time to tweak each print and
my focus area is elsewhere.
 
So far printer seems to be insufficient only because terrible supports issue.
Maybe it`s only my unit, I don`t know.
 
Form outsite prints are no dought - hands down - excelent, next to the modling quality, with vaper smoothing I believe it could really be.
The insite of model and fitting parts for more complex models is diffrent story. 
Supports are thick,dense and stick perfectly to model.
The outer shell of support is glued to bottom of model making it impossible to remove without brut force which often result with
broken parts as supports are so dense I can`t distinguish if I drag support or part of my model already.
I spent tens of hours on printing and hours on pillig, gluing and fixing prints and after all models are scratched not fitting to each other because of
choppy surface or broken details.
 
I print on Zortrax V4 (I think hot end v1)with Zsuit 1.8 then 2 beta - Z-ULTRAT, Z-ABS so far, with supports automatic mode - this make model unusable because of glued supports, 
edge/point and custom modes- but here problem is, then even on
small areas where support are not present, surface is not solid - fibroid like and absolutelly mechanically unusable.
I have not play with temperatures and fan but I believe Zortrax settings are best suited for those filaments as it is set defoultly.
 
I printed already diffrent models, smal and complex and large e.g new extruder cover - all models have this same issue with supports.
Orientation of models are also right.
Is there any way to fix this, maybe dual fan,hot end v2. I`m open on everything as at this point my printouts are absolutelly usless?
Is there any way to set support gaps, thickness etc.(face or edge or point support thickness although set to 1mm seems to keep always this same thickness)

my hints for fast:

- black color is more sticky than others, if possible - change filament color

- install 2nd fan (http://forum.zortrax.com/index.php?/topic/767-dual-fan-shroud/?hl=%2Bsecond+%2Bproject#entry20431)

- try to put pauses between support and object (it helps to cool down "space" between them)

- take off side panels (but without them you may have more warping problems)

thx, I use black filament not by chance, second - fan may be idea but I don`t know is it not violation of Zortrax warranty - printer modification  on my own?

pausing between supports will definitely  cool down space between but also model layer will may get weaker in this point and it will cool down as well?

taking off panels may work only with small models because of warping and usually i print larger models that is the reason I choiced zortrax to have enclosure.

I have also found similar topics but it seems this is still not fixed.

https://www.3dhubs.com/talk/thread/zortrax-m200-support-removal-issue.

I'm wondering if it's a change in hardware? My two newest M200s appear to print hotter than my older six. The finished models are always glossier and the raft and support material is much harder to separate from the model. I thought perhaps it was a mixed spool of filament because the regular matte finish of Z-ABS on these two looks closer to Z-ULTRAT but it doesn't appear to matter which roll of Z-ABS I use on these machines...it's always glossier and harder to separate.   Zortrax? What's changed hardware wise? What can we check or change to see if it is indeed a difference in hardware on newer M200s? 

Today I will test print with fan set on 100% power. I was told to change new thermocouple if support will be still fused.

I will let you know if this will fix the case.

fan on 100% didn`t fix it.

Hi Kredka,

Do you have a multimeter? If so, we can easily determine whether the heater is at fault or not. The resistance measured on a cold heater should amount 15-16 Ohms. 

Moreover, I would go through the autocalibration process again. It's possible that the perforated plate is located too close to the nozzle, which leads to overheating and welds together both - the model and the raft/support structures.

Let me know once you check these potential factors of the problem.

I will buy one and check it. For autocalibration I do it before each print and don`t fix the issue. I have also tried to put printout to freezer before removing support but as you can guess - did not help either.

BTW, have you switched from Z-SUITE 1.8 directly to 2.0 Beta? You can try to print on 1.12.1 in order to exclude the software as a potential factor, however it's very unlikely it is one.

Anyway, check the resistance on heater. I will give us an answer whether it's the cause of the issue or not.

I have checked resistance few times and result was very, very different from what should be. It was 0.2 ohm. I did it with cold heater however with cheapest multimeter so before measurement I check it with 10 Ohm resistor and multimeter works fine. I also repeat measurements few times and It was always 0.2. As for z-suit 1.12.1 I haven`t check it yet. 

4545

heater.png
You must have measured it incorrectly. Did you attach probes to those two cables I marked in the picture?

attachicon.gif heater.png You must have measured it incorrectly. Did you attach probes to those two cables I marked in the picture?

I measured our two newest M200s and one was 12.7 and the other 16. How much of a variation is normal and how far off is necessarily "too hot" and causing the whole print to be glossier and harder to separate model from support material?  

It's a closed-loop system - variations in the heater resistance should not (and don't, in my experience) cause major errors in extrusion temperature. Heck, I've even used 12V heaters instead of 24V, and the only issue is a bit more over- and under-shoot as the PID loop tries to keep up with the fast response of the heater. The thermocouple and related stuff are another story altogether. If the temperature data reaching the firmware does not indicate the true temperature of the hot end, there will be an error. There are a few things in that chain, and they're all critical: the thermocouple itself, the connections of the thermocouple to the amplifier board (poor connections can result in "parasitic thermocouples"), the amplifier circuitry, and the A-D converter in the microcontroller, along with its reference voltage. Any error in any of these elements will result in a error in extruder temperature. Thermocouples are extremely simple (two wires welded together) and generally reliable.

I measured our two newest M200s and one was 12.7 and the other 16. How much of a variation is normal and how far off is necessarily "too hot" and causing the whole print to be glossier and harder to separate model from support material?  

David, if memory serves, you have the ability to actually see the extruder temperature, so if there's a difference due to the heater variations it should be obvious.

Zortrax have fantastic support team.

I have received almost immediately new parts so could I replaced thermocouple all together with pcb which is located above extruder. Since then I done only some small printouts which look way better, supports peel off easily but in order to claim I fix it, I have to print something bigger with more complex supports and structure so

I will let all of you know if this was a fix. Thank you all of you for help.

I took a photo of old thermocouple and it look concave and burned - rusty like on the bottom surface. The new one has perfect flat wall.

https://ibb.co/bA4tv6

David, if memory serves, you have the ability to actually see the extruder temperature, so if there's a difference due to the heater variations it should be obvious.

Yes, I do Julia....I'll move it over to the suspect M200s to compare.  Perhaps I can swap PCBoards up top to see if the problem follows the board as well?  You are such a tremendous resource Julia..... thank you!  -db

Simply, if the value is way below 15 Ohms, it means that the heater is malfunctioning and does not get hot enough to proceed with the printing process (the heater is PTC). If the resistance measurement amounts 16 Ohms or higher - the part is overheating.

I did few prints and It seems that changing thermocuple+pc fixed the issue howewer I perceived that quality of
supports varied for different printouts - when I print this same model multiple times some supports are more difficult to remove than others, but its way way better.
Thank you every on for help.

Hi kredka,

Please set the speed of fan to 100% and place the models a bit further away from each other.

This way we can prevent the overheating effect more efficiently.

Apply the abovementioned steps and let me know if it helps.