M200 Not Printing Hot Enough

Hey,

So a small problem with one of my M200's.

For the past few weeks its been having trouble extruding. My first thoughts was that it wasn't heating up enough to properly extrude based on the way prints were turning out. So because I didn't have time or interest in going through Zortrax warranty service stuff I just ordered a new thermal coupler, heating element and extruder cable thinking that would fix it. The prints got better but there is still some issues.

This is a photo of the problems:

 

Sahd2fv.jpg?1

So the one on the left is before I got the new parts. It might look like delaminations but it actually just wasn't printing layers in those spots. Also the big crack is from me breaking it, not the printer. The three next handles are from after replacing the parts. Its better but still not perfect. So after replacing the parts and still having issues I ordered a infrared thermometer to see what temps I could record. Since I have multiple M200's I was able to compare the two machines, below are those results.

WgxdxDt.jpg

So clearly its not reaching the same temps. I was wondering what other parts might need to be replaced to fix this? The circuit board in the extruder? The main board? Anyone else run into an issue like this? I've put in a support ticket but I figured asking here might be worth it too.

Also some specs:

Bad Printer:

v3 M200

v2 Hotend and build plate upgrade

v1.0.0 Firm with 1.4.1 Z-Suite

Good Printer:

v4 M200

v2 Hotend and built plate

v1.0.0 Firm with 1.4.1 Z-Suite

Interesting. Normally I'm skeptical of IR non-contact measurements but those are some really big differences. The printer obviously thinks everything is OK, otherwise it'd produce an error message. That leaves the little thermocouple conditioning PCB above the extruder, the ribbon cable, and the motherboard AD converter as possible error sources.

Interesting. Normally I'm skeptical of IR non-contact measurements but those are some really big differences. The printer obviously thinks everything is OK, otherwise it'd produce an error message. That leaves the little thermocouple conditioning PCB above the extruder, the ribbon cable, and the motherboard AD converter as possible error sources.

Ya, that's exactly what I was thinking across the board. I bought a pretty decent IR so I knew measurements would be decent. Since I've already replaced the ribbon and heating element I was thinking the next step would be that little PCB above the extruder. Just need to chat with some people about cost or hopefully if Zortrax gets back to me soon they can supply me with one since its still under warranty.

Ya, that's exactly what I was thinking across the board. I bought a pretty decent IR so I knew measurements would be decent. Since I've already replaced the ribbon and heating element I was thinking the next step would be that little PCB above the extruder. Just need to chat with some people about cost or hopefully if Zortrax gets back to me soon they can supply me with one since its still under warranty.

Try replacing that PCB, worst case scenario would be mainboard. 

Since there is no Zortrax Warranty outside Europe, you should contact your local reseller in order to get replacement parts. 

You can check if those paths (marked on photo) look fine on your MB. 

Try replacing that PCB, worst case scenario would be mainboard. 

 

Since there is no Zortrax Warranty outside Europe, you should contact your local reseller in order to get replacement parts. 

 

You can check if those paths (marked on photo) look fine on your MB.

Except I’ve been told multiple times by 3DProShare/Zortax USA that there is warranty coverage inside the US.

Except I've been told multiple times by 3DProShare/Zortax USA that there is warranty coverage inside the US.

It's our official distributor on US soil, but they are not direct part of us and there is nothing like Zortrax USA

But still, there could be warranty on our product but provided by 3DProshare or any other Zortrax reseller in USA on their products. 

It's our official distributor on US soil, but they are not direct part of us and there is nothing like Zortrax USA

But still, there could be warranty on our product but provided by 3DProshare or any other Zortrax reseller in USA on their products. 

If your printers weren't so good I would sell all the ones I own and move on. You as a company really need to get your business together.

You might want to talk with someone if Zortrax USA isn't actually a thing:

http://www.zortrax-usa.com/

https://www.amazon.com/s?marketplaceID=ATVPDKIKX0DER&me=A1RN6GYCDSYDQ8&merchant=A1RN6GYCDSYDQ8&redirect=true

http://www.ebay.com/usr/zortraxusa?_trksid=p2047675.l2559

And why would you tell people there is no warranty coverage but then say "oh well actually there might be since all of our distributors offer one". Why not just say contact the distributor you bought it from for servicing? Instead you make everyone in the US all confused and think there is no coverage making people not really want to buy one.

Edit: On a side note Marcin, you seem like a new addition to Zortrax, or at least newly appointed to marketing/customer relations. Its great to see Zortrax trying to improve their online presence with a social media manager on here and places like 3DHubs. I would just recommend working on your responses. On 3Dhubs you just go around threatening people who even look at a Z-Temp or 3rd party nozzles with loss of warranty and stuff (which apparently doesn't even matter according to you). A nozzle, really? Why not take a chill pill with the iron hammer of empty threats and be a little friendlier. A lot of people already don't like Zortrax for their closed-source nature, I'd recommend stop giving them more of a reason to not like you.

Well after a quick email to Octave I have a new PCB that sits above the extruder on the way free of charge.

And to no surprise they didn't ask if I had ever used a Z-Temp, 3rd party nozzle, 3rd party filament.

(guess what? I've used all 3)

#FIGHTTHEPOWER

I cannot imagine how the extruder PCB could fail that way (just working with too low temp).

The points that Marcin showed I can imagine and of course the ones that Julia told (including the extruder PCB but then I would check the connectors and wires first).

Ribbon cable is my favorite as always.

As you have more than one M200 you could check easily with just swapping the parts including the extruder PCB (probably not the ribbon cable if it's different).

Good point about swapping the extruder PCBs as a quick way of eliminating it from suspicion. This board and the chip on it could definitely account for the errors, since it is the key component in converting the microvolt, non-linear, thermocouple output to a usable signal for the motherboard. Any errors on this board, or the connections to it, can wreak havoc with temperature accuracy.

I cannot imagine how the extruder PCB could fail that way (just working with too low temp).

The points that Marcin showed I can imagine and of course the ones that Julia told (including the extruder PCB but then I would check the connectors and wires first).

Ribbon cable is my favorite as always.

As you have more than one M200 you could check easily with just swapping the parts including the extruder PCB (probably not the ribbon cable if it's different).

I'm going to check those points on the board that were pointed out earlier, just been at work all day so I wasn't able to. I'll let you know what I see.

Another reason why I think it might be the board on the extruder is I have had to pull that thing off a bunch to clean out jams and I’ve noticed things not working quite right after putting it all back together. Think I may have damaged it or something during a removal.

And I would try swapping parts around to test but I don't have time or the interest in possible damaging both machines to trouble shoot one of them.

Think I may have damaged it or something during a removal.

[...]

And to no surprise they didn't ask if I had ever used a Z-Temp, 3rd party nozzle, 3rd party filament.

(guess what? I've used all 3)

#FIGHTTHEPOWER

I see.

And after you hacked your printer and think you may have damaged it yourself the discussion is about you're asking for warranty?

I damaged my extruder PCB because of getting an old ribbon cable from a reseller and being not aware that cables have changed.

I just spent that 7 bucks for the new PCB instead of asking someone else to carry the bill and starting a public discussion about it.

I see.

And after you hacked your printer and think you may have damaged it yourself the discussion is about you're asking for warranty?

I damaged my extruder PCB because of getting an old ribbon cable from a reseller and being not aware that cables have changed.

I just spent that 7 bucks for the new PCB instead of asking someone else to carry the bill and starting a public discussion about it.

I wasn't demanding a warranty by any means. I've paid for most of the parts I've ordered so far, Over $60 for the heater and cable. I would have paid for this too but Octave mailed me the part without even asking.

And I could have but I haven't used the Z-Temp in months and when I did I maybe used it for 30 minutes. These problems started only a few weeks ago. Plus this discussion wasn't started so I could demand parts, it was asking if anyone else had the same issues and had ideas for a solution. Never do I demand this to be covered or anything.

Thanks for the concern though...

Well after a quick email to Octave I have a new PCB that sits above the extruder on the way free of charge.

And to no surprise they didn't ask if I had ever used a Z-Temp, 3rd party nozzle, 3rd party filament.

(guess what? I've used all 3)

#FIGHTTHEPOWER

Do you really think that dragging about it on official forum is good idea?

Do you really think that dragging about it on official forum is good idea?

Doesn't seem like a bad one either... Do you really think threatening your customers with useless threats is a good idea?

Let’s be honest, maybe what, 5% of Zortrax owners have a Z-Temp? Is it really worth the negative image you give off by publicly persecuting them on almost every forum? Not to mention honestly tell me how you could tell if a customer really used a 3rd party mod besides mailing it in still attached? You couldn’t. So why not just give up.

I can’t think of any other company that so activily pursues its customers like you do. Could you imagine if car manufacturers went around car forums and warned every guy that put a custom exhaust or ecu in his car that he no longer has a warranty?

When someone posts a question about Z-Temp or 3rd party nozzles or whatever, instead of posting your standard copy and paste, cold sounding, warning, you actually tried talking with the customer. Tried to figure out why they were thinking if needed a 3rd party product. Maybe give them some info to show them they didn’t need to buy it. You know, basic positive stuff.

In the end though this isn’t what I made this thread for. I was just looking for help. Oh well.

Doesn't seem like a bad one either... Do you really think threatening your customers with useless threats is a good idea?

Let’s be honest, maybe what, 5% of Zortrax owners have a Z-Temp? Is it really worth the negative image you give off by publicly persecuting them on almost every forum? Not to mention honestly tell me how you could tell if a customer really used a 3rd party mod besides mailing it in still attached? You couldn’t. So why not just give up.

I can’t think of any other company that so activily pursues its customers like you do. Could you imagine if car manufacturers went around car forums and warned every guy that put a custom exhaust or ecu in his car that he no longer has a warranty?

When someone posts a question about Z-Temp or 3rd party nozzles or whatever, instead of posting your standard copy and paste, cold sounding, warning, you actually tried talking with the customer. Tried to figure out why they were thinking if needed a 3rd party product. Maybe give them some info to show them they didn’t need to buy it. You know, basic positive stuff.

In the end though this isn’t what I made this thread for. I was just looking for help. Oh well.

I'm not threatening and prosecuting anyone, lets not confuse it with warning, just to avoid future problems and surprises when we refuse repairing printer under warranty just because we've found a smallest piece of 3rd party filament on nozzle/hotend/extruder (confirmed by lab test). I could be more subtle, of course, but people still have no idea about it. 

Just to clarify, using 3rd party filaments / parts, could cause serious problems with your printer, especially getting clogged (extruder / hotend). Thats it, lets cut it here. 

Back to case, usually that kind of heating issues are caused by Ribbon / Heater&thermocoupler set but since it already has been replaced, that leaves us with PCB (yes, faulty PCB also could be causing heating issues) or Motherboard (worst case scenario, but still possible).

Photo I've sent you before, shows similar problem. That visible and marked path caused heating problems. 

I'm not threatening and prosecuting anyone, lets not confuse it with warning, just to avoid future problems and surprises when we refuse repairing printer under warranty just because we've found a smallest piece of 3rd party filament on nozzle/hotend/extruder (confirmed by lab test). I could be more subtle, of course, but people still have no idea about it. 

Just to clarify, using 3rd party filaments / parts, could cause serious problems with your printer, especially getting clogged (extruder / hotend). Thats it, lets cut it here. 

Back to case, usually that kind of heating issues are caused by Ribbon / Heater&thermocoupler set but since it already has been replaced, that leaves us with PCB (yes, faulty PCB also could be causing heating issues) or Motherboard (worst case scenario, but still possible).

Photo I've sent you before, shows similar problem. That visible and marked path caused heating problems. 

I checked the pins you marked in the photo and all of them look fine. I'll let you know once I get the PCB in and test it out.

"I'm not threatening and prosecuting anyone, lets not confuse it with warning"

Interesting statement, I would not be surprised if someone from the Zortrax parent company would contact re-sellers in the USA directly, telling them to stop local warranty services to registered users of the forum that have claimed to use third part mods on this product.

BUT I'm sure that the re-sellers I've been involved with here in the USA (Octave) would turn away from that idea with a disgust.

Only my thoughts on this are my own, I of course am only speculating based on my personal experiences in this arena of battle.

Just to stay on topic though, Yeah, sounds like an electrical issue.

Regards

Does anyone know if the non-EU distributors get warranty parts for Zortrax at no cost of if the distributors are required to pay for warranty parts themselves?

So an update:

I installed the new PCB, no improvements there.

After thinking about it a little and talking with some people I decided to reinstall the v1 hotend to see what happens. Well I got an interesting result. Now instead of kind of random failures I now have this:

FiIL6A7.jpg

Its a little hard to see but there are pretty consistent failures going up the whole Z axis, every 15 layers or so. Really don't want to have to RMA the whole machine but I'm running out of idea.