(Yet another) argument for opening up print settings

The M200 is a state-of-the-art, precision-engineered, revolutionary piece of equipment capable of perfect prints right out of the box. That plus its competitive price point makes it a very attractive option for beginners, a segment where Zortrax has done remarkably well. There have been many, many requests for Zortrax to open up more advanced settings like temperature, feed rates, rafts, etc., and Zortrax have always disagreed on the grounds that the key to the M200's quality is its thoroughly-tested and perfectly-tuned print profiles and materials that save users the hassle and waste associated with trial-and-error.

It's an understandable position, and one that I can agree with on some levels. But here's the thing: yes, many of us bought the M200 because it's beginner-friendly; but even though we were beginners when we received our M200's, we now have a fair amount of experience under our belts and we're ready to start tinkering and experimenting ourselves. Zortrax has taught us the importance of a high-quality, consistent spool of filament and we're ready to start using high-quality, consistent filaments that cover applications not yet met by the Z-Filament line. We want our state-of-the-art printers to print with state-of-the-art materials like metal-infused and flexible filaments, we want our precision-engineered printers to print with ultra-precise materials like nylon; and we want our revolutionary printers to revolutionize our workflows for other things like investment casting with wax filaments, pottery with ceramic filaments, and electronics with conductive filaments.

Zortrax, there is a whole world of possibilities out there for anyone with a 3D printer and we have faith that the M200 is capable of handling them all. We just want you to show some faith and give us the freedom to explore these possibilities. I'd say something like, "you gave us wings, now let us fly," but the truth is you gave us a rocket engine and now we want to blast off to Jupiter.

Wow, are we really doing this again? 

Whether I agree with you or not, it simply isn't going to happen. Zortrax argues print quality all the time just because it's the easiest for us to swallow; the end argument is financial. They are an international corporation, and they have figured out what every other manufacturer has: there is just not enough profit to survive off of hardware sales alone. Since they're closed source, they have to do all development for hardware and software, and a one-time purchase by each customer isn't enough to fund this. 

"But Ultimaker does it, Zortrax can too." Well, no. The difference is that they have different goals - UM want's to provide machines for the hobbyists and tinkerers who happily help develop the hardware and sofware, and Z wants to build a multi-national corporation aimed at the plug-and-play "it just works" market for people that either don't have the know-how or just don't have the time to mess with it (e.g. professional designers).  

So in summary, it isn't going to happen whether we want it or not. Can we drop this now?

And just so it's said, even their up-front argument of user issues holds water as well. Some of us may be capable of getting more out of the machine, but go on YouTube and take a look at how many videos about m200 issues there are already; how many do you think there'd be if they opened up the controls? Remember, these are targeted at people that aren't necessarily tinkerers, so it's not the same as other printer communities. 

Yeah, we're doing this again and we'll continue to do it as long as we're living in a world where 3D printing becomes cooler every day and we're stuck with a meager four materials (one of which doesn't work) whose differences boil down to "rigid, more rigid, most rigid, and semi-transparent rigid".

Given all of the materials options in the world, I’d still go Z-ABS if I need to print something in ABS. If I’m in need of a professional print and reliability is paramount, I’d use a Z-filament with Zortrax’s profiles. If there’s something a Zortrax product can do, then I’m going to use a Zortrax product. But Zortrax isn’t losing money if I buy a spool of Ninjaflex because they aren’t in the flexible filament market to begin with. Same goes for wax, PLA, nylon, wood, metal, and everything else in the world that isn’t ABS, HIPS, and PC.

In fact, I’d argue that opening the printer up to non-Z materials results in more money for them because everyone would be buying v2 hotends and, should Zortrax’s choose to manufacture them, smooth printbeds, various diameter nozzles, v2 extruders, DUAL extruders, and other hardware upgrades. Since the M200 would still be closed-source even after opening up software settings, theirs would be the only legal channel for purchasing these mods.

If you have a V1, Ill take it off your hands for you so you can not be "stuck".  

Give me a deal!.  :unsure:

If you have a V1, Ill take it off your hands for you so you can not be "stuck".  

Give me a deal!.  :unsure:

The M200's hardware is excellent, the software is where we're "stuck". I'd offer you a deal on that, but it's already free.

Complaining that the M200 is closed source after buying a closed source printer 'knowing' that is was closed source printer is a bit like buying a 4x4 and complaining it rolls a bit in the corners. Personally I think Zortrax are doing the right thing. Keep the choices limited to ensure everyone can get great results. Anyone who wants to print metal impregnated elasto magnetic multi wood grain wonder fibre (MIEMMWGWF) can go an get a UM2, it's perfect for the job, but expect to spend the next 12 months of their life debating 'optimum settings'.

I suppose that Zortrax management staff have made some marketing analysis and they follow a business strategy which they consider that is the best for the company.

But my impression is that the possibility of using the wide range of materials that are available on the market would be very valued by future purchasers and could increase the sales of the company. 

I am sure that there are hundreds (or thousands) of customers that would purchase a M200 but they finally buy another 3d-printer which can be fed with nearly any "standard" filament and have more flexibility.

Complaining that the M200 is closed source after buying a closed source printer 'knowing' that is was closed source printer is a bit like buying a 4x4 and complaining it rolls a bit in the corners.

A more fitting analogy would be complaining that the 4x4 only accepts a single brand of gasoline.

The fact of the matter is that the M200 already has hardware hacks that allow for the use of alternative materials and eventually some intrepid programmer will crack Z-Code. But it'd be so much easier if Zortrax just opened up some settings.

The M200 is a state-of-the-art, precision-engineered, revolutionary piece of equipment capable of perfect prints right out of the box. That plus its competitive price point makes it a very attractive option for beginners, a segment where Zortrax has done remarkably well. There have been many, many requests for Zortrax to open up more advanced settings like temperature, feed rates, rafts, etc., and Zortrax have always disagreed on the grounds that the key to the M200's quality is its thoroughly-tested and perfectly-tuned print profiles and materials that save users the hassle and waste associated with trial-and-error.

 

It’s an understandable position, and one that I can agree with on some levels. But here’s the thing: yes, many of us bought the M200 because it’s beginner-friendly; but even though we were beginners when we received our M200’s, we now have a fair amount of experience under our belts and we’re ready to start tinkering and experimenting ourselves. Zortrax has taught us the importance of a high-quality, consistent spool of filament and we’re ready to start using high-quality, consistent filaments that cover applications not yet met by the Z-Filament line. We want our state-of-the-art printers to print with state-of-the-art materials like metal-infused and flexible filaments, we want our precision-engineered printers to print with ultra-precise materials like nylon; and we want our revolutionary printers to revolutionize our workflows for other things like investment casting with wax filaments, pottery with ceramic filaments, and electronics with conductive filaments.

 

Zortrax, there is a whole world of possibilities out there for anyone with a 3D printer and we have faith that the M200 is capable of handling them all. We just want you to show some faith and give us the freedom to explore these possibilities. I’d say something like, “you gave us wings, now let us fly,” but the truth is you gave us a rocket engine and now we want to blast off to Jupiter.

mitico …

The fact of the matter is that the M200 already has hardware hacks that allow for the use of alternative materials and eventually some intrepid programmer will crack Z-Code. But it'd be so much easier if Zortrax just opened up some settings.

You mean, before somebody steals your money  its easier to distribute it by choice?

Yes, you have a point there ;)

regards

Andi

I agree with Ahmedjaber but also with Labrat. They choose a business model that they will follow strictly. The obvious inspiration is Apple and Steve Jobs. Following the metaphor the obvious consequence in hackintosh. Or Zack!

We have a strong and alive hackintosh community and Apple is still strong and I bet have benefits of its existence.

Zack is born long life to Zack!

They just announced the new printer, and as expected they are going to a chipped cartridge system that will completely prevent 3rd party filament without hacking. This should clearly show that they have zero intent of opening it up, and instead are aiming at becoming the next Stratesys. All arguments for them to open up controls are completely moot.

They just announced the new printer, and as expected they are going to a chipped cartridge system that will completely prevent 3rd party filament without hacking. This should clearly show that they have zero intent of opening it up, and instead are aiming at becoming the next Stratesys. All arguments for them to open up controls are completely moot.

But would you buy one to get quality prints with soluble support? There are plenty of open source printers out there that can produce terrible results if don't know what you are doing.. They are trying to eliminate that.. Would I like more materials to work with? Of course, but I'm not willing to sacrifice quality to get them.. It will happen in time.  I'm happy you compared them to Stratasys.. High quality printer!!!  I want to get a 3D scanner but I'm not going to settle for the Makercrap one..

But would you buy one to get quality prints with soluble support? There are plenty of open source printers out there that can produce terrible results if don't know what you are doing.. They are trying to eliminate that.. Would I like more materials to work with? Of course, but I'm not willing to sacrifice quality to get them.. It will happen in time.  I'm happy you compared them to Stratasys.. High quality printer!!!  I want to get a 3D scanner but I'm not going to settle for the Makercrap one..

We're mostly on the same page here buddy...  :P

I was simply trying to show that no matter what side you are on there is no point in continuing the argument since anything said is a waste of breath since it'll all be chipped anyways. 

We're mostly on the same page here buddy...  :P

I was simply trying to show that no matter what side you are on there is no point in continuing the argument since anything said is a waste of breath since it’ll all be chipped anyways.

Or they could re-brand the M200 as a more enthusiast-friendly printer. If that’s even a remote possibility, this conversation is even more relevant now than it was two weeks ago :slight_smile:

Hi,

When i bought m200, I was aware it was closed so really different of the other printers I have. I bought it because I want a high success print rate, and I must say I am nearly at 100%.

What I would LOVE is Zortrax makes partnerships with some filament makers, not to reduce costs, nor to use PLA, but to be able to use quite specific materials. Example, it would be great to be able to use Igus PF180 filament on my M200, because it requires quite a good printer to have decent results, and that’s probably a filament type Zortrax will not produce.

I think indeed Zortrax will never let people to tweak settings so allow the use of all the filaments. That’s their economical model. M200, compared to other printers, is cheap (build materials used, 32bits controlers, etc.). Spare parts - not upgrade parts - are not expensive too (again, compared to other printer, I think about UM’s ones). So it is normal they earn money with something else; they have good engineers, support team, etc. they have to pay.

Laurent

 

Example, it would be great to be able to use Igus PF180 filament on my M200, because it requires quite a good printer to have decent results, and that's probably a filament type Zortrax will not produce.

I think Igus is just the POM filament, same result with Igus PF180 as with POM, rate 1 to 10 for warping it score 20 :slight_smile: This is main reason why is rare to find any pictures of prints done with it.

 

The obvious inspiration is Apple and Steve Jobs.

The inspiration is my daily problems - if I need to spend more than 20 minutes to setup something then I want to throw it away because it wasting my time and if I see one million of settings then I know that someone didn’t done coding/testing job correctly and I have to do this for what he got salary.

 

They just announced the new printer, and as expected they are going to a chipped cartridge system that will completely prevent 3rd party filament without hacking. This should clearly show that they have zero intent of opening it up, and instead are aiming at becoming the next Stratesys. All arguments for them to open up controls are completely moot.

You can use any material so long as you accept that you void warranty by doing it. So much of things can going wrong purity of material have to be perfect for 0.3mm nozzle, feeder motors can be damaged by using wrong diameter of filament, you can clog whole extruder because of wrong melting temperature etc. this is not big problem with open design printer as M200 but INVENTURE need a lot of sensors and prevention systems to not let for user damage the printer.

Machine is your and nobody stop users from doing experiments wit materials so long as you are responsible for any extruder failures and you pay for this.

We charge for our filaments always typical market price and even lowest price in some cases.

 

Anyone who wants to print metal impregnated elasto magnetic multi wood grain wonder fibre (MIEMMWGWF) can go an get a UM2, it's perfect for the job, but expect to spend the next 12 months of their life debating 'optimum settings'.

This is problem of owners which have only Zortrax they never really got the real feeling of “adjustable settings” and user tuned ‘optimum settings’ which is just selling a dream - “this time print didn’t went good but for sure I have to tune something” and then quality can be perfect… 6 months later problem still exist. This is also perfect cost saving on updates and support - if your print went bad then please try to change parameter X, Y, Z, Q, W, U, I, O, G, H first, then most of customers just give up and live with it thinking that everything is good with software just they lack of ‘setup’ knowledge is the reason of quality problems.

Best Regards

Martin

This is problem of owners which have only Zortrax they never really got the real feeling of "adjustable settings" and user tuned 'optimum settings' which is just selling a dream - "this time print didn't went good but for sure I have to tune something" and then quality can be perfect... 6 months later problem still exist. This is also perfect cost saving on updates and support - if your print went bad then please try to change parameter X, Y, Z, Q, W, U, I, O, G, H first, then most of customers just give up and live with it thinking that everything is good with software just they lack of 'setup' knowledge is the reason of quality problems.

 

So true!!! This is why I bought Zortrax.

So true!!! This is why I bought Zortrax.

Me as well. I don't want to spend time screwing around with settings just to learn one thing to apply the next time around. There are times when I can convince myself self that I'm smart enough to figure everything out and I want to able to adjust my equipment accordingly but in the end, I'm not. What I want more than anything is for the printer to give me perfect results every time I send something to it. I get that out of the Zortrax 90% of the time. Even the other 10% is questionable.

Also, I think people misunderstand hi-tech advanced machinery with the amount of setting you can adjust. We have a $90k Projet 3510 HD Plus and I can't adjust anything! I have three material choices and three resolution settings. That's it. But... I do get perfect hi-resolution prints 99.9% of the time.

Me as well. I don't want to spend time screwing around with settings just to learn one thing to apply the next time around. There are times when I can convince myself self that I'm smart enough to figure everything out and I want to able to adjust my equipment accordingly but in the end, I'm not. What I want more than anything is for the printer to give me perfect results every time I send something to it. I get that out of the Zortrax 90% of the time. Even the other 10% is questionable.

Also, I think people misunderstand hi-tech advanced machinery with the amount of setting you can adjust. We have a $90k Projet 3510 HD Plus and I can't adjust anything! I have three material choices and three resolution settings. That's it. But... I do get perfect hi-resolution prints 99.9% of the time.

But limited settings are not always key to sucess. I work with most expensive CNC machines there is and they have a shitload off featuers becuase you need them sometimes.