Zortrax Announced New Printers


#121

the price for that support cartridge is comparable to what Martin Shkreli did to Daraprim. its way more practical to pay for another M200 or an SLA printer, than to purchase a printer with an $89.90 proprietary cartridge with a small amount of filament. 

I'm wondering if its because the market is starting to get saturated with so many 3D printers that companies are starting to milk it while its hot...


#122

I think they are aiming to be a stratasys mojo killer, uprint competitor. If the machine performs well, the mojo doesnt make any sense, the uprint only if one needs the extra 50-60mm build area and you have the money to burn. The inventure is substantially cheaper than either of those.  Many of the low cost 3d printer companies  are having problems (or have shutdown) because the market is saturated with bottom cost machines. Zortrax is trying to stay out of that.

I am iffy on it though, primary because of print times, and dss time. With the m200's, I'm finding the material costs to be insignificant for clients, the time... by far, dominates costs.


#123

I kinda hope that you're correct and the Inventure is a major success in the professional micro size FDM market.

Then again, it seems to be a contradiction to target a competitor in a not so cost sensitive market only by price.

I understand the material cost is comparable so it's really only the asset cost - which is even less important in a commercial environment.

And Stratasys is still the market leader which allows them to provide a level of customer service that Zortrax won't be able to - especially in the US market.

So honestly, if a small Polish company would release e.g. a multimeter that is on par with a high-end Fluke industrial multimeter: would you call

that a Fluke-Killer? Would you assume that the market for Fluke multimeters collapses the next day?


#124

Stratasys is still the market leader which allows them to provide a level of customer service that Zortrax won't be able to - especially in the US market.

I have never been to sure as to why Zortrax dislikes the US market (or any other market other then the EU) so much. People in the US have money to blow on great gadgets and tools which is exactly what the M200 is. 


#125

why would it say affordable materials on the Inventure ad if they are targeting the professional micro size FDM market? affordable to who? the jump from $21.90 for a .35kg z-ultra filament and $89.90 for the support material also .35kg is just ridiculous.

I've made things that needs tons of support, and I know I would go through tons of the support material if I had the Inventure.

I'm pretty complacent with pricing, but there is a line that you draw, when you know the company is just being unreasonable.


#126

why would it say affordable materials on the Inventure ad if they are targeting the professional micro size FDM market? affordable to who? the jump from $21.90 for a .35kg z-ultra filament and $89.90 for the support material also .35kg is just ridiculous.

I've made things that needs tons of support, and I know I would go through tons of the support material if I had the Inventure.

I'm pretty complacent with pricing, but there is a line that you draw, when you know the company is just being unreasonable.

The target market is shifting a bit, from hobbiests/prosumers -> prosumer/professionals. The filament price is high (particularly support) but I think they are targeting stratasys lower end machines... those are priced ridiculously.

Compare to stratasys.

Mojo (5x5x5, fixed 0.18mm res) build filament $400/kg and support $400/kg, machine with wash  $7,000

Uprint SE (8x6x6,  fixed 0.25mm res) build filament $210/kg, support $210/kg, machine with wash  $16,000

Inventure (5.5x5.5x5.5, adjustable .09mm-.4mm res), build filament $60/kg, support $260/kg, machine with wash $3,700

So comparing to Inventure

Mojo, inventure has much cheaper running costs, cheaper buy-in cost, better resolution, larger build area

Uprint, inventure has cheaper running costs, much much cheaper buy-in costs, much much better resolution, but less build area

If the Inventure is reliable and accurate,  Mojo is dead I think, uprint will lose market.


#127

M200: $2000

Z-Temp: $160

ZT-HE Hotend: $100

PolySmooth unit: $300

PolySmooth Material 750g: $45

Total: ~$2600 give or take a few dollars.

Boom, found a great way to get high quality models and end user products!

I can feel the ban button above my name being hovered!


#128

M200: $2000

Z-Temp: $160

ZT-HE Hotend: $100

PolySmooth unit: $300

PolySmooth Material 750g: $45

Total: ~$2600 give or take a few dollars.

Boom, found a great way to get high quality models and end user products!

I can feel the ban button above my name being hovered!

I was looking at that recently, Julia is getting ready for it and I will probably be trying that route.I don't think the m200s are going anywhere, even outside of that.

But... the inventure is in a good spot to have it's own place I think. It will be able to print things that are flat out impractical to print on the m200 due to the dss. Prints should be a more accurate and reliable due to the dss and the heated build chamber, especially near full size objects. Lack of model cleanup requirement can be huge cost savings on certain types of prints. Likely wont be any fiddling required (professional setting, people are unlikely to be modding the machine).


#129

 Likely wont be any fiddling required (professional setting, people are unlikely to be modding the machine).

The M200 was marketed as a "Professional" 3D Printer! For that matter how much we all have to fiddle with a base unit to get it to work. I may be pessimistic about most printers but I have good reason to doubt the functionality of a brand new machine in any market. 

The first people to jump into the Inventure are going to face issues the developers have never seen and this will cause loss of parts and waste of expensive material. Not to mention the customer will feel like they bought a beta machine. This is inherent with any 3D printer but it is a much bigger problem for any company that has smaller infrastructure. Lets face it the M200 is not a 100% bug free machine regardless if you include the down right cheap cables or not and this machine is almost 3 years old.

Im not trying to pick a fight or anything, just making a counter point that is something to think about when considering a purchase on a new printer.

-NS


#130

as it stands, Zortrax is not making it easy for a lot of people to upgrade to the Inventure.

I can overlook the missing wi-fi capability and higher-resolution that was advertised which I'm still waiting on, but this is the straw that broke the camels back!


#131

The M200 was marketed as a "Professional" 3D Printer! For that matter how much we all have to fiddle with a base unit to get it to work. I may be pessimistic about most printers but I have good reason to doubt the functionality of a brand new machine in any market. 

The first people to jump into the Inventure are going to face issues the developers have never seen and this will cause loss of parts and waste of expensive material. Not to mention the customer will feel like they bought a beta machine. This is inherent with any 3D printer but it is a much bigger problem for any company that has smaller infrastructure. Lets face it the M200 is not a 100% bug free machine regardless if you include the down right cheap cables or not and this machine is almost 3 years old.

Im not trying to pick a fight or anything, just making a counter point that is something to think about when considering a purchase on a new printer.

-NS

No fight,  agree the m200 is not a professional level printer, but expecting the inventure to be comparable to the lower end pro machines (if it's not, the material pricing wont be justified sense).... The M200 is definitely in the prosumer area. The machine being 3 years old, has had some updates, and compare to what is out there today it still fairs pretty well.  I think they did a good job with it starting from zero. The Inventure should be in a much better spot because it's not starting from zero though. Much of the beta-ness happened on the m200.... hopefully. The other reason I have high expectations for the inventure is the fact that it has a heated build chamber... most/all professional fdms have it for a reason, pretty much all hobby machines dont. Wont know until it's released though.

as it stands, Zortrax is not making it easy for a lot of people to upgrade to the Inventure.

I can overlook the missing wi-fi capability and higher-resolution that was advertised which I'm still waiting on, but this is the straw that broke the camels back!

Im not sure the Inventure is meant to be a replacement for the m200. Right now they're promoting the m200 as the versatile machine (materials, build area), while the inventure is the extreme reliability machine (perfect prints every time despite geometry, no messing around). As far as I can tell, the m200 is an inventure with greater build area and material selection... minus heated chamber, self wiping cleaning heads, dss. 


#132

we will never see eye to eye on this and I accept that...


#133

we will never see eye to eye on this and I accept that...

Not rejecting what you've said...especially for individuals.


#134

maybe if consumers were not locked down by a chipped cartridge, we would be able to use cheaper alternatives like this product PrimaV Water soluble filament 

 

#135

I would assume that in case of a dual.extruder with a common hotend, the selection of the support material is somewhat critical. Like it has to use the same extrude temperature.

Even with two completely separate extruders, I would assume parameters like shrinkage should be nearly identical to avoid bending/cracking.

It’s maybe worth thinking about how many printers with two extruders are available and how many of them are actually used to print with specific support material.

I haven't seen many positive examples apart maybe from some with PolySupport where the emphasis is more on easier removal than on printing very complex geometries (as it's not dissolvable).